Linda Kaye

Dr Linda Kaye | Ep 2

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Why we really use emoji in our messages.

We chat with Dr Linda Kaye about the fascinating world of Emoji and their role in digital communication. Dr Kaye delves into why we use Emoji, how they shape the tone and interpretation of our messages, and their influence on the people receiving them. She also shares insights into her Introductory book on Cyberpsychology and how she feels the mass media interpretation of academic findings is improving.

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Dr Linda Kaye

Dr Linda Kaye specialises in Social Inclusion and Wellbeing, particularly: How we can use online settings to promote social inclusion and well-being.

You can read more about her here.

Also known as ‘The Cyber Doctor’, Dr Kaye is available as a consultant to industry and a speaker. 

Find out more about her on her website The Cyber Doctor.

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In the second episode of Confessions of a Cyberpsychologist, we dive deep into the fascinating world of cyberpsychology with Dr Linda Kaye, Associate Head of Psychology at Edge Hill University. Dr Kaye, a founding member of the British Psychological Society’s Cyberpsychology Section and keynote speaker at the upcoming 2024 Cyberpsychology Conference. She shares her insights and experiences in this growing field.

Finding Her Cyberpsychology Path

Dr Kaye’s journey into cyberpsychology began during her PhD research on the psychological experiences of video games. Struggling to find her academic community, she discovered cyberpsychology—a field that connected her to like-minded researchers. This sense of belonging inspired her to further explore the discipline, contributing to its growth as a recognised branch of psychology.

Building the Cyberpsychology Community

Dr Kaye recounts the 2018 establishment of the British Psychological Society’s Cyberpsychology Section. Alongside Dr Alison Attrill-Smith, Dr Chris Fullwood and Dr Simon Bignell, Dr Kaye was part of the founding members of the BPS CyberPsychology section (recognised by the BPS in 2018).

A Look Ahead to the Cyberpsychology Conference

As keynote speaker for the upcoming 2024 Cyberpsychology conference in Liverpool, Dr Kaye will address “What Cyberpsychology Can Tell Us About the Digitally Connected Human Experience.” Her talk promises a broad exploration of how digital technologies shape our interactions, behaviours, and emotions, while reflecting on future research directions and challenges.

Emojis, Behaviour, and the Human Experience

Dr Kaye delves into her pioneering research on emojis and her Ted Talk on what our Emoji use says about us and what she is researching now on the cognitive impact of receiving an emoji. Her research explores their role in communication and emotional expression. Initially focused on personality judgments based on emoji use, her current studies investigate how people cognitively process and interpret emojis. This shift highlights the nuanced ways emojis function as social tools, revealing generational, cultural, and individual differences in usage and interpretation.

Beyond Emojis: Exploring Social Media and Technology Acceptance

Dr Kaye’s research interests extend to understanding specific social media behaviours and their psychological drivers. She is also investigating technology acceptance in organisational settings, aiming to bridge the gap between theoretical models and practical applications in industry. Her research findings are being used practically in the business HR context (Net Emotion Index) and in Digital Marketing.

Making Cyberpsychology Accessible

Her book, Issues and Debates in Cyberpsychology (written during Lockdown), addresses pressing topics like screen time and social media’s impact on well-being, offering a balanced, evidence-based perspective. Accompanying resources like video summaries further enhance accessibility for students, professionals, and the general public.

Opportunities for Students and Enthusiasts

Edge Hill University offers a Psychology undergrad. Students can also engage in research internships at the Cyberpsychology research lab with Dr Linda Kaye. For aspiring cyberpsychologists, she highlights the vast potential of the discipline to explore uncharted territory in how humans interact with technology.

Podcast Transcript

(Transcript generated directly from podcast audio using TurboScribe, and not manually corrected for transcribing errors).

Welcome to episode two of Confessions of a Cyberpsychologist. Today we are chatting to Linda Kay, Dr. Linda Kay, who is Associate Head of Psychology at Edge Hill University. And Dr. Linda Kay, we’ll be talking about later, is one of the founding members of the British Psychology Society’s Cyberpsychology section, and also the keynote speaker at the 2024 Cyberpsychology Conference, which we’ll also be touching on.

Welcome Dr. Linda Kay to Confessions of a Cyberpsychologist. We’re delighted to have you on board. Thank you.

Thank you for inviting me. I’m really looking forward to having a bit of a chat. Excellent.

It’s always a delight chatting to you. Linda, I just want to get a bit of background from you in terms of where you’ve come from and what that pivot point for you was in terms of your passion for cyberpsychology. Yeah, I mean, I just, like a lot of people, I did an undergraduate psychology degree, which was just a normal sort of standard BSc route.

And I actually kind of fell into cyberpsychology really, it was when I started my PhD, which was just on the topic of sort of the psychological experiences of video games, broadly. And it was from finding, trying to find conferences to go to that I then saw this term cyberpsychology and thought, oh, that sounds exciting, and realised there was actually a community that my research fit into. Because I think a lot of people who do cyberpsychology research tend to find that the university they might be studying it at, they might be the one, one of the only people in their department who might be studying it and feel a little bit isolated.

And so it’s nice to kind of have a collection of people who were doing things that, you know, were similar to me, or at least in the same sort of field to me. So yeah, it was very much falling into it. So the pivot for me was just finding my people, which is always nice.

And recognising that there was a broader kind of field to what I was doing. Yeah, absolutely. It’s like finding your tribe, people who you can connect with on the deep level of passion.

Yeah, definitely. And I think that’s always lovely about the cyberpsychology community is that it genuinely is a really supportive, friendly community. And we certainly experienced that at our own conferences in the cyberpsychology section.

And we get a lot of really positive feedback on that. So it’s really, really lovely to have a great community. Yeah.

And especially because they, throughout the UK to come together at something like a conference is an amazing thing. Yeah, I mean, for me, it’s like the thing to look forward to every year is the conference. And certainly it’s, I know, it’s useful for me kind of making sure I get stuff done.

So I’ve got stuff I can present. So it’s good to keep me on sort of time track. So I’ve got something exciting that is something new that is ready to share.

So that’s always good in terms of managing projects and things from that perspective. Exactly. In terms of the cyberpsychology community, you were instrumental or part of the founding members of the British Psychology Society cyberpsychology section.

That’s a lot to say in a mouthful. Yeah, we need an acronym. So tell me about that.

How did it start kind of getting to the point where you’ve actually launched this whole section? And that was in 2018, I think it was recognised and officially became a section. Yes, that’s right. Yeah.

So yeah, 2018 was our official kind of birth, so to speak, as a section in the BPS. And yeah, I mean, it’s myself and it was Dr Alison Axel Smith, and that’s Chris Fullwood and Dr Simon Bignell, who were the sort of four founding members, really. We sort of took this forward alongside a few other people who were part of a wider sort of steering group.

And it came about as part of a roundtable discussion at one of the kind of previous conference series that a lot of us used to go to. University of Wolverhampton used to do a lot of conferences and host a lot in their network there. So it’s part of a roundtable discussion.

And there was this general appreciation that it would be a useful thing to do. There were enough of us, enough interest, and why not have it recognised more officially as a sort of discipline of psychology. So it’s that really, that stimulated the movement of that.

And then it involved a whole load of putting together proposals to the BPS and going to their research board and defending the proposal. And it got a lot of support from the BPS. We didn’t come under much opposition, which is great because we’ve got a lot of effort and time into the proposal.

And then it just involved the official processes of the BPS, like member approvals and voting and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, that was several years in the making. It’s really fantastic to see that it is now recognised and that the community just continues to be abused and to grow.

And grow and grow and grow. Yeah. And then so you, keynote speaker of this year’s 2024 Cyberpsychology Conference.

So tell us about that and what’s kind of generally, because it’s the title you’ve got is What Cyberpsychology Can Tell Us About the Digitally Connected Human Experience. That sounds really exciting and fascinating. I hope it is.

Hopefully one day. Yeah, so I was really, really looking forward and really grateful to be invited, actually, to keynote at it. It was a lovely surprise to get in my inbox.

And so, yeah, the kind of idea was, I keep sort of using this term, digitally connected human experience. And I think there’s something really intriguing about that as a term. And I kind of think, you know, it helps us recognise that, you know, as psychologists, the human experience is a kind of essence, really, of what we’re interested in.

And actually, what does that look like? How is it different? What are the kind of nuances of it when we are in a digitally connected world? So it’s trying to sort of do a bit more of a kind of bird’s eye view, I guess, of cyberpsychology as a whole. I do, I am intending to draw on very specific kind of insights from my own research, because anyhow, it’s always just nice to be able to do and, you know, I want to be able to talk about something I actually know about, which sounds good. But yeah, I thought it’s a keynote, it’s a nice opportunity to kind of do that kind of a sweep, I guess, and where are we up to? And where do we want to go? And what are the kind of interesting things we could get even more curious about? And what do we need to discover more? So it’s sort of a bit of a kind of a checkpoint, really, for me as well.

I find doing things like keynotes are a great way of helping me consolidate my own thinking of what my thoughts are. And so it’s useful for that as well. Absolutely.

And when is the conference? So the conference is taking place on the first and second of July 2024. And it’s great for me this year, because it’s really local, it’s Liverpool, it’s being hosted at Liverpool John Moores University. And so, but we do have people all over the country who come and attend it and also some international colleagues as well.

And so yeah, the abstract deadline is actually still open. It’s open until the 5th of April. And actually, I’ve just seen on the websites, that actually there is an extended deadline as well to the 12th of April.

So if you’ve not quite got anything ready, you’ve got a little bit of grace period there. And then registration will then open thereafter. Okay.

So if someone wants to come along, do they have to be a cyberpsychologist? Or can there be anyone who’s just kind of fascinated and wants to know more? And if they do, how long do they have before they need to, before the final registration ends? Yes, that’s a good question. I mean, I’m also, I think it’s nice that, you know, anybody who’s enthusiastic about cyberpsychology can come. Anybody who isn’t necessarily wanting to present anything, you know, the registration is open to not just to members of cyberpsychology section, but much more broadly.

So the deadline for registration is the 17th of June. So there’s plenty of time to sort of be pondering whether you want to come along. In terms of if you wanted to present at it, then the submissions for abstracts do go through a review process, and it has to sort of meet particular kind of criteria.

So that will depend on the outcome of that review process. But essentially, anybody can register and attend, who might just have an interest. We have had the members of the press come along to conferences before, because they’ve seen something that has piqued their interest.

In terms of what you’ve done to kind of promote and talk more about cyberpsychology in general, you’ve done a TED talk. Tell us about that. Yeah, that was a while ago now.

That was in 2017, I think. So yeah, that was that was a very random email to get. The email to actually went to my junk folder, so I actually missed it for ages, but it was a good job I seriously checked my junk folder.

But it wasn’t junk, it was genuine. Yeah, so that was the TEDx Vienna, which was lovely, because we went to this theatre, which is a beautiful venue. And that was all about the what are emojis? I can’t remember the title.

What do I remember to say about you? I think this is the title. Yeah, it is. What can you tell about people’s personality from their emojis? And that was a really good experience.

It was really exciting. And something else which is really nice about TEDx is you have a general theme of the conference, but everybody’s from very different disciplines. But you do become a bit like a family because you spend a few days with people.

And it’s really nice, again, as another opportunity to talk about your ideas and research to wider audiences and people who might not necessarily know about cyberpsychology. So it’s great. Have you done any more research on emojis? Yeah, so doing a lot of research on emoji and actually the focus of that has changed actually a little bit and evolved over time.

So the previous work and the work that I presented at TEDx was based on our research more about the sort of personality judgment angle on that. So what we can tell about people when we’re in a social kind of interactional context. And the more recent research and a lot of the program research got kind of mapped out now is more about how we process emoji.

So it’s a bit more kind of what the cognitive processes are when we’re kind of on the emotion recognition of them. And how do we kind of what’s the sort of sensory and visual and those kind of processes. So it’s a lot more cognitive.

But it’s really interesting and I’m delving into areas of the literature in different disciplines that I haven’t done for a long time. So it’s really nice to continue to learn and apply really interesting approaches and experiments or paradigms and things to study this. And it’s really intriguing to me that nobody’s really done the kind of things I’m thinking about, which seems a bit weird, because they seem quite obvious things.

But unless I’ve missed something. So yeah, it’s an exciting area to be in. And what’s really good is to because it’s a lot of lab based studies, I can get students who are interested in cyberpsychology involved.

And they can work as paid research interns and actually learn about psychology, and then support with collecting data and meeting participants. And so it’s useful for both myself and my students. Yeah, I think that’s the great thing about cyberpsychology is there’s so many areas that haven’t been studied and haven’t been researched.

So to find to find something that you’re passionate about and not find anyone anyone’s done it before is actually relatively easy compared to the general psychology fields. And so for you studying emojis, it’s Yeah, it might just be that there just hasn’t been enough people who are fascinated by it, like you are. Possibly.

And I think the other thing is that, again, I think I’m kind of going to be reflecting a bit on this in my keynote talk is I think, sometimes there’s a lot of really useful, theoretical, and also areas of literature that exist that actually apply really closely to some of the things we’re interested in cyberpsychology. But actually, I don’t think we’re drawing on perhaps as much as we should do. So one of the particular limitations, I think, actually, generally, this is not specific to specific researchers, but as a general observation is, I think we tend to sort of try and start things from scratch and think, oh, yeah, we need a theory to explain that.

And so the theoretical foundations of a lot of cyberpsychology is a bit weak and a bit shaky. And but actually, there’s so many really useful frameworks in other related disciplines, sometimes even in other areas of psychology that actually apply, well, I think they apply really well. So if we use those, we’ve got a much stronger foundation.

So I think that’s the general observation. And so I think it’s the case that people who think of the kind of cyberpsychology angle and I’ve got these ideas, but just haven’t kind of made the connection with what kind of currently exists in other areas, maybe that might be why there’s areas that haven’t quite fully been explored yet. Yeah, absolutely.

Just going back to research. So in terms of your TEDx talk, what you it sounds to me is that the research you did before was how people use emojis to express themselves. And now it’s about how people receive those emojis and how that then resonates with them psychologically and cognitively.

So is that fair to say? Yes. Yeah, I think that’s it. So it’s sort of shifted from what the interpretations are about it in a social context.

Yes. And two more from a receiver’s point of view, how it actually is processed, not sort of in a communication context, but on a very kind of on that kind of automatic level. So looking at, you know, is it a kind of implicit judgment process or is it more explicit? So using different kind of measures to answer that question.

Yeah. So and just kind of taking your research out of the academic realm, how do you feel? How do you think people who are not academics will be able to use your research and your findings in a way that will benefit them? Do you think it’s for teachers, therapists, parents? Who do you think is going to really benefit most from what you’re finding out? Yeah, well, different ways, actually. I mean, I’m currently working with an organization called The Emolytics and they’re based in the US and they actually, I actually cooperate with somebody there and they actually are interested in the research and actually collaborated and published together because they use the insights on that to understand how we can use emoji or how different businesses can use emoji to understand net emotion index and sentiment of remote working and sort of well-being and the well-being metric of organizations.

So actually being used in a sort of organizational sort of context, which is something I would never really thought about. And so, again, that’s useful when people kind of approach you and say, I’ve got this particular thing and I think this could be relevant. Oh, glad you’ve made that connection because I haven’t.

And so in that context, I think, and I can see a lot of scope there. So something else I’m sort of interested in at the moment is looking at how we might experience emoji in terms of do we feel like we approach or withdraw? So again, there’s interesting frameworks in psychology about that idea of approach and withdraw and from a kind of emotion point of view. So we’re more drawn to positive emotion, more likely to inhibit a negative.

So I’m kind of interested in that. So I think from a digital marketing perspective, what’s interesting is how that might relate to brand and perception and engagement. Yeah, that kind of thing.

That’s what I’m kind of thinking. So, yeah, I think it can be kind of applied to those sorts of contexts as well. So that’s fascinating.

So it’s almost narrative psychology, but from an emoji perspective. I don’t know what narrative psychology is. So it’s about the words we use to describe what we’re going through and using different words that mean different things and how that then really gives a good indication of where we’re at.

Yes, I guess that’s quite a nice summary, actually. Yeah. And I think what’s what’s interesting about emoji and what we have to be careful of is we tend to have this assumption that emoji are a universal language and I would tend to disagree with that because we don’t seem to, from one hand, we don’t seem to process them emotionally on a kind of implicit level.

So there is a kind of evaluation process that goes on. And what the implication of that is, is that we have different interpretations of the same emoji so that we have diverse ways that we label them and use them in different contexts. So when we get kind of a narrative psychology point of view, I think it’s interesting that we don’t all share a narrative that there are differences.

So, yeah, I think that’s a really important caveat of this kind of emoji research. So from a generational perspective, do you think that there’s a difference? Because older generations won’t, I suspect, use emojis as much as younger generations. And there’s meaning attached to specific emojis that some people will understand and others won’t.

Is there this generational difference or is it more about a culture, a group context of what they talk about and how they speak? Yeah, I think it’s a mixture of things. I don’t think there’s a generational distinction. I think you sometimes see a bit of some kind of trends.

But definitely, I think it’s less about how much people use them, but the way they use them is very different. And again, we see that when we look at some gender differences. Again, it’s not the case that females use more emojis than men.

It’s more likely to use them for emotional expression than men. And men are more likely to use them for other punctuation or all that kind of stuff. So I think that there are distinctions, not necessarily always very clear cut.

But we do see trends about them being used in maybe different ways. And I think we also have to remember now the software has developed where we can have emojis reactions to messages. And again, that’s a sort of different way that we might use them.

Younger generations might be more likely to make more use of those as a substitute to written comments and things like that. So I think there’s kind of nuances on that. Never a clear answer is there.

I didn’t give a yes or no to your question. It was a defence. Yeah, that’s genuinely the answer in psychology.

It depends. There’s caveats. That’s interesting, though, that there’s now those reactions to a message because it kind of tells someone that you’ve read it and you and you acknowledge it.

But actually, you don’t have to go to the effort of replying and thinking through what the answer ought to be without offending or saying the wrong thing. Yeah, it’s really interesting because there’s actually a really kind of interesting sort of popular book called I think it’s called Metiquette. And it talks about what does a like actually mean and the different interpretations of that.

And I think that that’s the same for things like reactions is that sometimes it might just be an acknowledgement. Sometimes it might be. And that could, in some cases, just be very abrupt and could be interpreted as being a bit rude.

And other times it might just be, yeah, I’ve just not had time to play. I’m just saying I’ve seen it and I’m on it. So, yeah, I think again, it’s that, you know, is it universal when we have all these different contexts that affect how we make a judgment about what that means and also that people interpret things differently? Yeah.

And that even that’s fascinating, because even from my perspective, when I react to a text, I think people think the same as me with my reaction. Yeah. And they probably they possibly don’t think that’s rude rather than, oh, she’s seen it.

Yeah. And I’ve had this conversation before with somebody, I think there’s a, again, I’m not sure if it’s been done or not, but, you know, I think there’s a really interesting theory of mind kind of piece there about how do you use emoji based on what your understanding of another person’s appraisal is about how you’re using it. And then there’s an interesting sort of interaction that happens there.

And so I know there’s research that looks at the kind of mirroring of emoji. And I know just anecdotally, I do that myself, people who don’t use them much, I don’t use them much with. If I know somebody uses this emoji a lot, I might be more likely to use it.

So there’s a really interesting interactional kind of thing that goes on there. But yeah, definitely, there’s something interesting about how we use them and interpret them based on our own kind of construct of what things mean. That’s just this is why I love cyberpsychology.

There’s so many fascinating things you don’t think about and suddenly you go, oh. No, actually, this is a really nice example of why I really like doing these kinds of things, because I often am thinking out loud, and I think, you know, verbalize things that either have been kind of been pondering in there or things that I haven’t thought about before, and it’s just prompted you to think that it’s really useful. Yay!

Brilliant. Now, during lockdown, I know that you did a, wrote a book. You may or may not be able to see this, but I’ll put a link to it in the chat.

Issues and Debates in Cyberpsychology. So what started this whole process of writing this book on your own and getting it published? Well, first I was invited to write it, so that’s always good. And it came actually at a really good time.

Well, two reasons for the time being, actually in retrospect, it was very useful. One is that I think I was at a point where I was thinking about a lot of different things in kind of isolation of each other and didn’t have that opportunity to kind of bring them together. And as I was sort of saying earlier, again, a good value for me for doing things like keynote talks is that it helps me do that bird’s eye view of things.

So actually it was really useful. It was at a point where I thought I really need to piece these things together in my head. And actually, for me, writing things really helps me do that.

And I do find I think three things better when I write things out. Yes, I might just read it all. I don’t know, but I just haven’t.

That’s really useful. I get birds. OK.

So it seemed like a really good point in time to do it from a kind of career perspective. And I had a chat with a few colleagues, senior colleagues, and they said, yeah, I think it’s a good point in your career to be a named author on a book. This can be helpful.

So I don’t know how familiar you are with academia, but certainly psychology. So research papers rather than books tend to be kind of rated the kind of esteem and higher esteem in books. But yeah, it seemed like a good thing to do because of that.

And as well as that kind of looking back retrospectively, it was just coincidence that I felt aligned with the time where we were experiencing a lot of lockdowns. And honestly, I think it was probably one of my saving graces. Yeah, I think a lot of people experience a lot of, you know, isolation and, you know, that kind of thing.

But it just it was a challenge for me to just just kind of get, you know, articulate things. And so I think kind of looking back, it was kind of good that it happened during that time as well. Yeah, it’s a fascinating book.

I just thoroughly enjoyed reading. I was like, oh, yes, I didn’t know that. Oh, that’s amazing.

So who is the who do you think is the right for the people who would be really interested in this book and go, yeah, you really need to read this? Is it people who are starting off in an undergrad or is it just a general knowledge book? What what do you think is a good type of person to pick it up? Yeah, I mean, I think it kind of applies quite quite well to lots of different audiences. I think certainly it’s it’s one of the key texts on one of the modules I do on cyberpsychology, and I’m actually now situated the module. So it is more aligned to the kind of themes of the book.

So it speaks a bit more directly. So that’s also helpful for me and my teaching to kind of just kind of review that. But actually, I think my main reason for doing it was actually probably more targeted towards media commentators, journalists, because often, a lot of people who work in cyberpsychology, myself included, get a lot of requests for comments on things that relate to popular debates about things like screen time or social media wellbeing, that kind of thing.

So actually having a book that situates the evidence around those sort of debates, I thought was a helpful way of framing it, rather than just there’s a book on this, and it’s let’s weigh up this and come to some kind of informed conclusion. So I think from that perspective, that in my head, I sort of thinking about future Linda, and this might rectify and give people the kind of answers that might be useful. But yeah, I think students, but also general public, is accessible enough for public audiences as well.

Yeah, I think it’s accessible enough for public audiences. It does, it’s kind of quite an academic style of writing, but that’s because you are an academic. So it’s kind of naturally, but it is, I think what’s really great about it is it’s very readable and very consumable by someone who doesn’t have a background in academics or cyber psychology.

So it is, it’s, and it’s, it’s not a long book. And that in the nicest possible way. I don’t think I could have written anymore.

Yeah, no, I thought actually when it comes to physical copies, that’s, that’s quite nice, actually, it’s just a little adjustable. Yeah, it’s something that’s easily read within a week, over a few cups of coffee. Okay, that’s good to know.

Yeah. Yeah. And just still so rich with information.

And just talking about journalists, because you said you said a lot of journalists contact academia, do you find that often journalists or the mass media misrepresents the information that academics do find and do write about in the papers that they publish? Or do you think they generally are getting it sort of okay, right? Things seem to be improving, I’d say. Sorry, it’s another it depends answer. Yeah, I worked with some very, very good journalists who didn’t, who used to take a lot of time to speak with experts who do their own research, who do a really good job of representing the kind of where the science is at.

And I’m not saying that’s always the case. It does, to some extent, depend on the particular news outlet they’re representing, not to name anyone in particular. And so I don’t engage with them, because I don’t agree with the way that they do journalism.

And certainly people I’ve worked with have done a really good job at being able to represent. And I think this often the kind of default mode is, let’s, let’s kind of panic a bit about these kind of things. But actually, I have seen an improvement in, but to be honest, what can be represented in the media can only be based on the quality of the science that exists.

And I think part of the ongoing challenge we have in cyberpsychology, and I know there are a lot of other scholars who experience this as well, is that we we’re constantly battling against ourselves, and where we have very different sort of philosophical views about technology. And when there’s so much contrasting opinion perspective in the discipline itself, and that really doesn’t help journalists try and understand where you’ve got these very different views, where do you find the kind of synergy of that and the kind of the agreed consensus points, because there are very many. So I actually don’t blame journalists, to be honest, because it’s a bit of a, a bit of a mismatch of evidence.

Yeah, so I think, I think there’s a learning point there about what the discipline itself can do to support itself to then be represented better. But there are, there are a lot of tremendous efforts from really good groups of research groups of people who are really trying to rectify that. And I know, you know, colleagues are involved in that kind of a really high level, government level of informing policy, and that it is the right people who are doing that, who are doing the good science.

So that’s always really encouraging, and that kind of reassures me a bit. Yeah, that is encouraging for me too, because I, I often talk to cyber psychologists who are so frustrated at what’s coming out of, in the mass media, the clickbaits and the, it’s all about getting, or it seems to be all about getting eyeball attention rather than decent science. So it’s so refreshing, so good to hear that that’s been done by great academics.

And there are a lot of, or there are quite a lot of good academics, really great academics in psychology. They are, and they also do a lot of work on the kind of public facing stuff. So one that comes to mind is the Oxford Internet Institute, and they, I actually saw the other day they were actually advertising for somebody to do the kind of public mass media kind of facing stuff.

So they’re investing a lot of resource in, in understanding why it’s important to be disseminating the research and making it available in a format that’s accessible. So that’s really good to see there’s a kind of investment there. That’s amazing.

Really, really good news. So you’re researching emojis. What else are you researching? Is there anything else that you find really fascinating that you’re diving into? A few of the bits and bobs.

I think my problem has always been I’m a bit of a magpie. I just think, oh, that’s exciting. I’ll do that and end up being way too broad.

Emoji stuff is always kind of very central and where the kind of very rigorous academic stuff comes in. But I’m also interested in understanding social media behaviours, a bit more collaborative colleagues at Aston University on this. And we talk about social media use and that isn’t.

I don’t really know what that means. That can mean a lot of things. So, yeah, and then people thought, well, you know, we can then talk about active use and passive use and that still doesn’t quite help me understand what that is.

So, yeah, looking more intricately at what the nature of different specific behaviours are that one can use. And it’s really interesting to me. And I’d love to do more research to look at how that specific types of behaviours change over time and context.

So doing some momentary sort of assessments that looks at the mood drivers or the context drivers about why you might do certain types of behaviour at different points in the day or whatever. And I think there’s an interest in that. And so, yeah, I’m trying to scrutinise that a bit more and understand that because essentially as a psychologist, I’m interested in behaviour and I want to understand what those behaviours are and what I’d be psychologically interested in that.

So, yeah, so I’m doing stuff on that as well. Other things, my friend, more industry sort of kind of work, collaborating in a very early stage of getting proposals together on thinking about drivers of technology acceptance in industry. So how we can support technology diffusion and implementation.

So, again, drawing on what we know from technology integration models and technology acceptance literature there. I think there’s some interesting work there to do as well, but that’s in very early stages. And you’ve also spoken about students who get involved with your research.

So tell me more about that. If someone wants to know more about cyberpsychology or get an undergrad with some experience in that, what kind of things do you get students involved with that will give them that experience? Yes, so at HCL, we have a really great paid research internship scheme. So that’s where our second year students and those who are on our masters conversion course can apply to be basically a research assistant in the department to work with colleagues on my projects.

And so over many years, and we’ll continue to be doing this as long as the funding is available to do it, which looking like it might be next year, which is great, is to just advertise projects on Psychology Emoji. And then I’ve always been able to engage students on those projects. And they do a lot of really useful work to support my research, but also they learn about cyberpsychology on psychology, how to do psychology research, and, you know, by practically doing it, which is obviously useful from a learning perspective.

And so they can get involved in and actually the research itself in that way. And as a result, they then if we publish those papers, they then become co-authors, because it’s a valid contribution to the research, which is great for them as well. And as well as that, certainly at Edge Hill, we have the final year optional module, which is what I’ve done in cyberpsychology.

And, you know, that’s, it’s a really cool module, I’m obviously very biased, but I always get lots of positive feedback from it, students seem to really enjoy the module and just helps them have really discussions and answer questions that they’re interested in, and think about the applied nature of it and how it can translate into all sorts of different contexts. So yeah, so those are the ways certainly at Edge Hill that people can get involved in cyberpsychology. So if a parent is watching this, or one of the children, and they’re really fascinated with psychology, and want to get involved in cyberpsychology at some point, or think this is an area that they may be really interested in the future, how do they register for undergrad? And what kind of processes would they need to go through? Because it’s the academic year is still about six months away.

So how, what are the processes? Is it too late to apply? Or do they need to still do other stuff? Yeah, so usually undergraduate recruitment setting at the Edge Hill, it might differ, the universities go through the UCAS system. So it is too late for this coming academic year. So normally the UCAS deadline is usually end of January, sometime in January.

And so it will be too late for this coming academic year. But for September 2025 entry, I mean, we’re already thinking about 2025 entry, we’ve asked the inspectors and things. So it’s not, it’s not too far in advance for me to be thinking about that.

And then yeah, it will be a case of the application window would be opening, such as I guess from, you know, September to January this coming year. And so that would, that would be the time to be looking at options and applying. And is there anything else that you want to kind of chat about, or that we haven’t covered that you find completely fascinating about cyberpsychology, or someone who hasn’t really interested in cyberpsychology, who has no experience or understanding of it? Are there any things that you think actually they really need to know this? I think it’s what’s useful is that there’s a lot of really useful kind of accessible resources out there.

And it’s something I did alongside a book where some like what I call cyber bites, sort of videos, which are summarized with video summaries of each chapter. And I actually find that really useful, actually, on my cyberpsychology module as well to kind of give a kind of little bit of a trailer of particular issues. And so it kind of works quite nicely as a companion resource to the book, but also those can be watched and accessed just in isolation as well.

So, and there’s other kind of examples of resources about topics in cyberpsychology, you’ve got things like pieces for conversation that colleagues have written on topics related to that, those are really designed specifically for public audiences, and that kind of digest some of the issues and give an accessible summary of the kind of scientific evidence. And I think things like that, you know, there’s lots of examples of those that exist. And, and there are some as far as I’m aware, still some resources on BPS cyberpsychology section website as well.

So and on there, actually, what’s really good is BPS have actually been doing a series of careers in cyber psychology, which I know you’ll know about because you’ve done one for us, which is amazing. And those are really, really useful to give insights into how cyberpsychology is applied in different types of careers. And again, I think you’re a really good example of that it’s the kind of thing I wouldn’t again, naturally think about where cyberpsychology fits, but obviously does really well.

And so those are really good as well, careers in cyberpsychology series that our colleague on the committee, John Wife, has done a fantastic job at. Yes. And one final question, what is your favourite cyberpsychology book? There are a lot of really good resources out there.

And I think one of my favourite ones is possibly the introduction to cyberpsychology resource that was published and edited by colleagues at IADT over in Dunleary. They’ve just finished the second edition and it’s on my bookshelf. Yes, get it.

Actually, this one’s a BPS core textbook series as well, which is even better. But this one’s great. This is really comprehensive.

And I find it useful, again, to recommend to students. It’s very sort of accessible in terms of it breaks down a lot of the sort of very typical content areas in cyberpsychology. So I would always say that one’s a really good one.

And I do have a lot of fondness for that as well, because I was invited to write a forward for that one. And I originally launched the book on its first edition. So that was always really nice.

And, you know, the colleagues over there are really lovely and friendly. And yes, that was a good one. And in terms of that book, how is it different to the first edition? Are there new topics or is it just updated research? It’s a bit of a mixture.

So broadly, they’re just sort of updates. And there are a couple of new topics in there. I can’t remember now off the top of my head what they are, but definitely were some new sections in it.

But yes, there is a progression from the first one in terms of it has been updated, because obviously, the nature of cyberpsychology is research moves quite fast. So these things do need to be updated quite regularly. So, yeah.

Excellent. Because I bought the first one. So I’m like, oh, do I need to? Yes, I do need to buy the second one.

Possibly. I’ll double check which the topics are. I think I need to anyway, because it’s just always fascinating to get updated research, because as you say, it moves on so quickly and there’s always new technology coming up.

And so therefore new behaviours that we display and the way that we engage with technology changes over time as well. And a cultural shift changes. So you really do need to keep up to date with cyberpsychology information.

It’s not just, you know, it’s therefore done slightly different things like child development, for example. Yes, there’s new research, but it’s not as fast-paced, which is one of the exciting things about cyberpsychology. This is interesting.

Yeah, this is exciting. Sometimes I just think, you know, I need about five of me to be able to study all the things I’m interested in and keep up to the pace, which, again, is part of the problem. I think it’s been quite broad in the kind of things I’m interested in, because it’s very difficult to keep track of all the different advancements.

And even though they’re still all within the same field, it’s quite a task to do. So again, yeah, that’s a lesson to me to be a bit more focused. Brilliant.

Linda, it’s been a delight and a joy chatting to you, as it always is. And all the best with your preparation for the cyberpsychology conference. And yeah, I look forward to seeing you again soon.

Yeah, thank you. And thank you for joining us in episode two of Confessions of a Cyber Psychologist.

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Ruth Guest

Ruth Guest (Sersha) | Ep 1

by Children, Teens and DigiTechExpertPodcasts

Exploring CyberPsychology with Ruth Guest: Founder of Sersha

In this episode, we delve into the intersection of technology and psychology with Ruth Guest, a cyberpsychologist and the founder of Sersha, an innovative platform aimed at educating preteens and their families about social media safety.

Ruth’s Journey into CyberPsychology

  • Ruth shares her evolution from a career in photography and marketing to becoming a CyberPsychologist. Her passion for technology and human interaction sparked during her childhood fascination with early internet platforms like MSN, Bebo, and MySpace.
  • A pivotal moment was her decision to pursue a master’s degree in CyberPsychology, which she completed during the pandemic. This academic foundation was instrumental in launching Sersha.

The Birth of Sersha

  • Sersha is a platform designed to teach preteens how to navigate social media safely through a simulated social media experience. The goal is not only to educate children but also to foster meaningful conversations within families about online safety.
  • Ruth emphasizes the unique design of Sersha: being engaging for kids, intuitive for parents, and aimed at bridging the knowledge gap between generations.

Addressing Real Concerns for Families

  • Common worries among parents include cyberbullying, stranger interactions, exposure to inappropriate content, and excessive screen time. Sersha offers an interactive, educational solution tailored to these issues.
  • Ruth’s innovative approach incorporates real-world elements like notifications and conversation prompts to encourage family discussions about digital behaviour.

The Future of Technology and Cyber Psychology

  • We touch on the rapid pace of technological evolution, including the rise of virtual reality, wearable tech, and tools like the Apple Vision Pro.
  • Ruth emphasizes the importance of staying proactive, informed, and educated both as individuals and families, to keep updated on the digital landscape.

Sersha is Revolutionary – being:

  • Parent-Friendly: Sersha helps parents understand platforms like TikTok, Snapchat, and more without feeling overwhelmed by jargon or technicalities.
  • Child-Centred: The gamified learning experience ensures preteens are engaged while acquiring essential online safety skills.
  • Family Focused: Sersha strengthens communication and trust between parents and children by providing conversation starters.

Ruth’s recommended reading:

Contact Ruth:

Connect on LinkedIn:

Linkedin

Get Involved with Sersha

Ruth invites parents of preteens (ages 8–13) to test Sersha’s platform and provide valuable feedback. This is an exciting opportunity to shape a tool designed to enhance digital literacy and family connections.

Parents: Test Sersha’s BETA Game with your 8-13 year old here or scan the QR Code.

Go to Sersha’s website

Closing Thought

Ruth’s passion for empowering families and educating children about online safety is a testament to the potential of CyberPsychology in shaping a safer, more connected digital world. Join her mission by exploring Sersha and actively participating in the evolving tech landscape.

What the acronyms mean:
  • IADT: Institute of Art, Design and Technology (Dublin, Ireland)
  • MVP: Minimum Viable Product
  • TAM: Technology Acceptance Model (the older we are, the less likely we are to accept technology)
  • CMC: Computer-mediated communication (how we communicate online)
Podcast Transcript

(Transcript generated directly from podcast audio using TurboScribe, and not manually corrected for transcribing errors).

Hi, my name is Carolyn Freeman. I’m a cyberpsychologist and today we’re chatting to Ruth Guest, who is also a cyberpsychologist and is founder of Socia. Welcome, Ruth, to our session.

Hi, Carolyn. Thank you so much for having me. It’s always such a pleasure to see you.

It’s a delight and a joy.

Yeah. So what we’re really going to be talking about today, Ruth, is what you’ve been doing, where you’ve been and what got you really fascinated with cyber psychology and then talk a lot about what you, your project and where you’re going with it and who it’s for.

So just a bit of background of you as a person, where you come from, what you used to do before cyber psychology. My name is Ruth Guest and I’m a cyber psychologist and the founder of Socia, online social media safety training for preteens simplified. And what we’re really building is a social media simulator to protect preteens from the risks of social media and increase and enhance family connection.

So I’m based in Dublin and I was a photographer, marketer, and just an RN creative and freelancer before I started Socia and how I got into Socia was through cyber psychology. I don’t think I would even have started the business without that degree. And so what happened was in 2020, I booked a one-way trip to Vietnam and I was like, I’m going to go to Southeast Asia.

I’m going to end up in Bali, end up in New Zealand. Just do what you do in your mid twenties, you know, they’re traveling. So I did that.

And, and I, at the same time had just finished an evening course in cyber psychology in IUDT in Dublin. And I was like, I do not, I’ll apply for the masters as well. I was like, I probably won’t go because I’ll be traveling, but why not? 2020 happened, obviously I couldn’t go to Vietnam and I got accepted into the masters.

And so I ended up moving down to Wexford where I was working full-time and doing the masters online for two years. And yeah, that’s just like, I loved the evening course in cyber psychology. It was such a lovely introduction to the topic.

But yeah, then I completely fell in love with it to the masters. So yeah. And then here we are a bit more to the story of how search was created, but that, that was really it when it comes to cyber psych.

So what was that pivot point for you in terms of knowing what cyber psychology is? Was it in uni or was there something else that happened that you went, Oh, that’s interesting? Yeah. I’ve always been interested in psychology and it’s just general psychology of how people interact. I think that’s really interesting.

But growing up as a millennial, like I remember my parents getting this, you know, the big old computers, the windows XP, whatever they are. And we’d go home from school and I’d go on MSN and I’d go on Bebo and I’d go on MySpace. I was like 14, 15 or something.

And I remember being like, this is the coolest thing ever. Like, it’s just amazing. And I was on Wikipedia all the time and YouTube and like looking at, because I love the encyclopedias growing up.

Um, so I was like, I have all the information I ever wanted my fingertips, you know? And, uh, that was where that kind of went into like my photography work and how I would present my photography through Instagram and trying to get work through Instagram, then working with influencers and working with brands and like, God, that’s really interesting. So when cyber psych came along, I was like, Oh, wow. So it’s psychology, but it’s also about, like, I have this interest in photography and, you know, how people are presenting themselves online.

I was like, this is really cool. And that’s, that’s kind of what got me into it. I would say.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s fascinating.

It is fascinating. And I just want, I do wonder if a lot of times cyber psychologists go into the cyber psychology because we’re so passionate about technology in the first place. And then there’s also passion about psychology and this kind of these two worlds intersect, which makes it such a fascinating area.

Yeah, I agree. Like, I think there’s a lot of, like, I would say a lot of cyber psychologists are like futuristic thinkers and, you know, we’re really interested in how technology impacts society because I think people always have this like really negative attitude about technology in the future. And yes, of course, there’s some horror stories that we should all be very wary of some things that’s out there, but it’s such a positive influence at the same time as well.

Do you know what I mean? And, um, but it’s, it’s interesting to see how, like, it’s cyber psychology. It’s fascinating because it’s such a niche field right now. Um, well, as it expands over the next 20 or 30 years, it’ll be so interesting to see how technology is potentially impacting babies who are like swiping on phones and like this kind of thing.

Like there’s the positives and negatives to it, but it’s, it’s encapsulated our entire daily lives now. So yeah, it’s, it’s so interesting. Absolutely.

And we’ve chatted before about, um, mass media and their perception of what they put out there to the general public on cyber psychology issues, even though they don’t call it cyber psychology. Um, and we’ve both kind of gone, Oh no, that’s not quite, um, the right kind of thinking process behind it. So what is your perspective on what the mass media puts out on what we do? I think it’s, it’s clickbait.

It’s all clickbait. And I think it’s very unfortunate, like, because what media is run by all these bank companies at BlackRock and stuff, and it’s, it’s their job to make as much money as possible. And the only way that they’re going to make as much money as possible is if they do clickbaity headlines and they don’t put out real research or real information around technology.

Like they, they will only look at lockouts and cash, you know? Um, I think that really, I think that that’s really bad because if people are only reading the news and they’re only looking at this clickbait material, um, and I’m not just talking about like the Daily Mirror or like the Sun or the Daily Mail, whatever it’s called. I’m talking about Sky News. I’m talking about CNN and all of the news organizations.

And they like it just for, for us, for people who understand that there’s so much nuance and context within how we interact online and the situations that we see online. Um, it’s very unfortunate for the people who just take their news as fact, and they have this, they’ve developed this fear around technology, um, because they don’t know how to use it. Uh, and that’s one of the things we’re doing, Saoirse, is trying to educate people about social media and how to use technology properly, because there’s nothing out there.

Yeah, which kind of led me into the next question. So what is it that got you passionate about starting Saoirse? What is, what, what is the point of it? Because if we’ve got all this, um, real, uh, clickbait media going on, are you doing Saoirse? What is, what can it do for parents? How are you, how are you helping people and change, trying to change things? Yeah, of course. So what I’m really passionate about is, um, children potentially reaching their potential, um, and getting the support that they need.

Um, because for various reasons, I didn’t really have that growing up. And, um, I do think that if kids have the potential to be who they want to be and the creative expression, I just think that their lives would be so much more fulfilled. I think that the family experience and the family unit will be a lot tighter as they go throughout their teenage years.

It’s just a personal belief of mine. And so when Saoirse started, um, throughout my degree, I had a huge interest in photorealistic avatars and I just loved them. I was like, this is going to overcome uncanny Valley.

It’s like, if we can potentially then, you know, create this AI, um, and attach it to photorealistic avatars, you’d be able to deliver like level one CBD therapy to people, uh, in countries where they can’t afford therapy. Right. And then I was like, right, what if you could actually do that for kids? So that’s really how Saoirse began, you know, it was going to be a digital therapeutics product and because of that passion, but I quickly realized that I wasn’t that kind of founder.

You know, I’m not going to raise that much money to, to build a, an AI machine learning model, whatever it is. And these photorealistic avatars that weren’t really kicking in, they weren’t really popular in 2020, but then only within the last year, like Mark Zuckerberg and Lex Friedman had like, though, he saw that, that, um, that podcast that they did, and it was like virtual reality. They literally looked like humans.

It was absolutely insane. So that tech really sped up fast, definitely not the right person to create that. Um, but then I went back to the drawing board.

I went back to these parents that I was speaking to, and I was like, you know, what are you actually worried about when it comes to mental health and wellbeing with your kids? And all of them said smartphones. And instantly I knew I was like, well, that’s click bait because everyone on the news is talking about smartphones. But I was like, the real fear here is that parents are afraid that the kids can’t look after themselves without the parents online.

Right. And that’s why I was like education, I think is needed and not just like online safety, phishing scams and all this kind of thing. Like it’s, it’s about how kids interacting online with each other and with strangers on video games and things like that.

It’s the communication. It’s the nuance of communication online. And there’s no one teaching.

And as a great, why don’t we use technology to actually develop something where we can teach them that in a fun and educating way, where also we can get the parents to learn about it too. And that’s what we’re building. The conversation starters through like a notification center.

So like every time a child completes a level, the parents will get like a learning outcomes of the level, but then they’ll get like this short conversation starter to speak about the dinner table. So like they come home from a busy day at work. They cook the dinner, they get a notification on their phone and it’s like, all right, Snapchat and location or Snap Maps.

The question is, how can you stay safe with Snap Maps or something like this? And the parents from this will learn from the child. And what I think that will do is enhance family connection and trust between the parent and the child, which is ultimately what we’re selling. It’s really nothing to do with education technology, but it’s everything about keeping the family connected.

Yeah. So it’s not really so much in the schools. This is about the family units and helping them to kind of be more cohesive and have conversations that they can have with their children.

Because a lot of parents that I speak to kind of say, well, I don’t know how to set parental controls. I don’t know what to talk to them about because I’ve got no idea what Snapchat is because I don’t use it. And who knows what TikTok is? So it’s how do you have to start that conversation with your children? How do you actually have the lingo? Because they have their own lingo and their own way of talking about stuff.

So how do you engage with them? And there seems to be this real gulf between the parents and the children. So is that kind of part of what you wanted to do? Pretty much. Yeah, that’s exactly it.

It’s about, you know, kids. Kids think that their parents are like, you know, they’re like, oh, mom and dad are cool. They don’t know what this word means online.

Yeah. Like so it’s about it’s about making sure that the parents are up to date of what’s going on in the kid’s life. You know, one short question that we’re like one open ended question can lead to a significant conversation about something that’s happening online in the child’s life, whether it be a conversation with friends in school or something like that, which a parent could then flag and say, oh, hold on, I didn’t know you’re speaking to this person, or I don’t really understand what this means.

And, you know, if the parent is actively involved and actively wants to learn, the child will give that information up at a preteen level. What we’re hoping is we can solidify that connection with the parent and child. So then throughout the teen years, if shit hits the fan with the kid, which let’s say 80 percent of the time it can do with teenagers, they will be able to keep that connection going when it comes to the online world.

So they’ll be able to say, well, mom and dad, we went through that social program together. They know what’s going on online. I can talk to them about this.

And that’s really and that’s really the vision and mission for Saoirse. So having that open conversation, having that ability for the child to say I can talk to my parents about this stuff. Exactly.

Correct. The real big issues come in teenage years when children are separated from their parents and with a group of friends. And if they don’t have that open communication, then it goes a bit piton.

Yeah, that’s that’s exactly it. Obviously, it’s going to work for for every single time. Every single family is different.

But we do want to create that process and that can help help families. So that’s what we’re building at the moment. And obviously, cyber psychology has been such a big part of that as well.

So, yeah, it’s very exciting. It’s just it’s so needed. It’s such a desperate gap in the marketplace.

And for parents as well, I think they they are often going to big media or trying to find something online and to come from a cyber psychologist who kind of knows what they’re talking about, who’s passionate about this. And I think a cyber psychologist, we don’t know everything. We never will.

But I think both you and I, we’ve spoken before about this. We’re constantly learning. We’re constantly trying to find out new stuff and just sharing what we know so that others can others can benefit, too.

It’s not about keeping it to ourselves. Yeah, sure. Sure.

And I think it’s such a niche field like we touched on this earlier before the call is that like it is such a niche field that we kind of are like I would say pioneers in this industry and we kind of have to make ways and educate others about cyber psych and about, you know, like the ideal self online. How do we present ourselves? How do we communicate online? You know, all these small little things. We have to spread the word about that.

I think it is like we were saying, for me, it’s very purposeful. It feels very purposeful that I can do this. And yeah, doing it through is just like a great avenue to do it.

Yeah. In some ways, it’s almost like we’re going ahead to draw the maps so that others can follow. And yeah, that’s a beautiful way to put it.

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s that’s great.

That’s kind of a part of what I see it is what I’m doing and what you’re doing. And I see that’s why I think we connect have connected so well in the past is that we’re both passionate about going ahead and showing the way and it’s never going to be perfect, but we’re doing what we can to draw maps together. Of course.

Of course. Yeah. I think it’s so important.

And I like for me, it’s kind of like you need to like it’s a high risk, high reward situation. You have to kind of take a risk and try to build something of value. And if if you fail, like you fail, try and fail.

Exactly. I mean, for me, it’s grand play. I mean, at least you tried.

Exactly. So tell me more about social in terms of having set it up originally, and we’re speaking before about how you’ve kind of started to fund this and able to do this independently now. So chat us through what that’s all about and how it started and how you’ve been able to upscale it.

Yeah, of course. So like we did do that pivot from my digital therapeutics into like kind of like social media learning. And what we did was from there is that I we interviewed like one hundred and fifty plus parents and we tried to figure out what the biggest concerns are when it comes to social media and the online world.

And they were cyberbullying, stranger danger, pornography, violence and screen time. And which are all very obvious things, you know, with very obvious concerns. And so I went away and built a load of different wireframes and prototypes on Figma and they weren’t great, but they’re grand.

And then I tested them with an age group of like six to 13. And they were grand, like what they were, they were like videos. And then the kids would answer questions after them.

And I knew it wasn’t going to be the final product, but I had to build something. It’s almost like, you know, do you write? You write, don’t you? And you know, like the way you have to write shit to get the good stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. So draft a thousand drafts to get to the right thing. Exactly.

So I built these crap prototypes and these kids were like, yeah, they’re grand, like, you know what I mean? But like, whatever. So then one day I kind of built this page and I was like, what if, you know, it was like, looks like an Instagram feed. And then I’m going to time the kids to answer questions.

Sorry, time them to analyze the Instagram feed. And then I’ll ask them questions. I did that.

And they loved that. And the parents loved that too. They’re like, that looks like Instagram.

I was like, yeah, it does. Yeah, whatever. And that’s where I was like, shit, I’m onto something.

Kids, all they want is social media. That’s all they want to do. They want to be with their friends.

They don’t care. So I was like, why don’t we build a social media simulator? And for me, I, I jumped at that idea because I’m all into like, um, I love virtual reality and how we present ourselves there. The simulation theory.

Um, I, I love that. So anything to do with the simulation, I’m like, that’s cool. So a social media simulator, maybe combined like Duolingo style challenges.

That’s where we were for the last while. And of course it’s been developing and developing, and I can’t say where we’re at right now, um, in terms of the development, but what we do have is like a MVP out that parents and preteens can test at the moment. So we’re trying to get as many of them to test and give us very, very critical feedback so that we can bring that to our development team.

And then we hope we’ll be launching our actual product in September. So that’s where we’re at. Can’t tell you too much more about it, but it’s, uh, it’s exciting.

The direction we’re going in, really exciting. So you, what you need right now was parents to participate and help you be part of this, this next step. Exactly.

Exactly. Passionate parents who understand the value of education. They understand that like, you know, putting parental controls in your phone will only do so much.

It’s, uh, you know, taking the phone away from you. It’s only going to do so much, but education is the way forward. Um, so yeah, we’re looking for as many parents with preteens, uh, between the ages of eight and 13 to come on, play the game, tell us that it’s crap, tell us why it’s crap, tell us what you’d love to see instead, and then go from there.

And like all the feedback so far has been like, this is shit. I’m like, this is amazing. Like that’s like, so many entrepreneurs would be like devastated by that, but I love that because they’re telling us why it’s crap.

Um, you know, it gives us like a baseline to work from. Um, so yeah, it’s been good. It’s been really fun.

A lovely learning experience. Yeah. Constructive feedback.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s necessary.

Always necessary. Yeah. That’s one of the things of kind of doing something in a small group of people or just on your own, it’s, it’s having this echo chamber of your own self and not getting that feedback, which is critical to making it really good and really helpful in adding value to people who are going to use it.

Of course. Yeah. It’s so funny you say that because I, I have been in my echo chamber for such a long time and because I’m not a parent and I’m not a teacher, I’m never around kids.

Like I don’t have a clue. Like I think my, like my, we only, I’ve only one nephew and he’s almost two, do you know what I mean? So I don’t have experience of routines. Um, so when I build something, it’s really important that I get that consistent feedback from parents who are actually around kids.

Um, but it’s great. Like our team has expanded recently. We’ve brought on, um, Heather Bernard, who, uh, she’s brilliant.

She’s a mom and she is also a teacher in international schools and she’s a digital wellness educator as well. So even having her perspective is brilliant because instantly she’s like, yeah, no, you don’t say that to a parent or like, yeah, we can go down this way because it’s for kids or like, it’s fantastic. So getting outside of your echo chamber I think is super important.

Yeah. I think also being, not having children actually probably helps you as well. So when I’m back in marketing days, one of the things you used to say to us is that if you have, um, if you use the product that you’re marketing, you become one and everything that you do is based on your mindset and your bias of how that product is used.

So you judge all the other people who use the product from your viewpoint. Whereas if you, if you don’t have, or you don’t use a product or you’re not a parent or you’re not this or you’re not that, you come to it from a very different perspective. So you actually listen to people who not in that space and don’t filter what their feedback through your bias.

So actually in a lot of ways, you not having children is a good thing because you’re coming from a, from a very different perspective and going, but actually what about what if, and I don’t understand, okay, so why? And so you’re able to build it from that passionate perspective that you can hear and listen from a non-biased viewpoint, which I think is, it’s not a disability. Actually, it’s a real advantage for you to be in that space. That’s really good.

I never actually thought of it like that before. And that’s so good to know because I always thought that it was such a disadvantage, not being part of a community of parents, you know, or not having my own, my own kids. Of course I’ve got cats, but they’re not really counted as human kids.

They don’t look at TikTok. Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, no. So like that, that’s, that’s so interesting. It makes sense.

It makes perfect sense why that would happen, but yeah, no, like it, it’s great to, as the team expands, like it was just me and as we expand even further, even just having the parents on board, it’s so good to see how we can take that feedback and then just like build it into something that’s actually going to be valuable. Cause that’s, what’s really important. Do you know what I mean? Rather than just building something for the sake of it.

What is your vision in five years time? What if you’ve been in an ideal world and you’re kind of, this is what I really like to achieve. What would that look like? Oh God. What do I share and what do I not share is the question.

So there’s many, many paths that social can go. Right. And you could look at merging with big tech to become a head of safety, the section for head of safety or matter or something potentially.

I could see this becoming, well, it’s definitely going to be in all schools. Like I, without a doubt, I could see this in a lot of schools. I do see it I would love it to be the go-to educational tool for social media.

So when you think of language learning, what’s the first app that you think of? I don’t know. Cause I don’t have children. Do you not learn languages? No.

No. Yeah. No.

So if anyone’s listened to this, the first thing they’d probably think of is Duolingo. Right. And do you know Duolingo? Yes, I do.

Now you mentioned it. Yeah. So we would love to be the, as soon as someone thinks of, okay, my child wants to go on TikTok.

Okay. They need to get social. And what’s interesting is that like, I think like, and you know, you’ll know this, like smartphones are going to be eradicated within the next decade.

We both know this, like they’re just going now the, the adaptability of like how people consume the new kind of tech, whether it be like a Neuralink like chip or something, or the glasses or whatever it is, or even the Apple vision pro not everyone will adapt to that as quick. And obviously we have like economic differences and how people can afford it and this kind of thing. Right.

So there will be people that will still use phones. But what I see is that Saoirse becoming a leader when it comes to education with this technology advances. So like right now I’m thinking of, okay, it might be a social media simulator, but social media is going to look so different in five years time, maybe because the Apple vision pro or something.

So how can we stay ahead of the curve and be a thought leader within that and, um, a pioneer for education when it comes to, uh, social media learning. And I’d love it to be education, not just for preteens, but education for everyone because everyone needs to learn cyber safe. Right.

We’re just saying that. So exactly, exactly. Yeah.

That would be ideal. I’d love that. Oh, fab.

So for parents, this will be, if my child now gets, um, gets a new device, whatever that device is, and I’ve never used it before I go to Saoirse to find out what the device does and how to have those conversations and how to ask the right questions so that I can engage with my child without them going, you’re a bit of a Luddite. You’ve got no idea. So have intellectual conversations or informed conversations with their child.

So is that kind of where you see the benefits for parents and kind of two to five years time? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Like the parents will be able to play, but it, of course it’s for preteens, but we do want to make that separate thing for parents to make it super accessible for them, but then also to make it interactive.

So like, let’s say for example, like something like the Neuralink, you know, happens, right. And everyone has it. And we can see social media at like a black mirror episode, social media through a contact lens or something like that.

And like, when that does happen, it might be in 10, 15 years. I, as in 15 years time, I’d be 45. I might have difficulty adapting to that because we know, um, time, the technology acceptance model, it goes lower, the older you get, right.

Um, so if that is the case, like we want to make it easy for older age groups, let’s say to understand these new technologies through some native experiences. Yeah. But also I guess in some ways, give them the choice of whether or not they’re adopted or why they should adopt it and what benefits it has, and also how to mitigate any negative implications of using the technology.

So it’s kind of not just necessary for preteens, but maybe if I was at that point, I’d be very old. So would it be that I would kind of look and go, actually, that’s not for me, but it’s really interesting because I could have conversations with other people who are using it without them going weirder. Yeah.

Um, so that’s, that’s really fascinating and being a portal, almost like you go to Wikipedia to find out about someone that you come across. Okay. Let me find out the history.

This is top of mind of, I need to know something about this technology. Let me go to social and, and finance pretty much, pretty much. So like you make the way like parents nowadays, they go to FAQ pages, right.

Or they go to like these charity websites and they’re like, this is what you need to know about some shots, you know, or this is what you need to know about your or like open AI, whatever. And it’s like this lengthy blog article. And what I’m looking at it from a cyber psychologist perspective is like, we’re not consuming media through written content anymore.

The only written articles we might read are actual genuine, genuine journalism from, from real writers, you know, where we’re books or, you know, and like, I absolutely love reading. So like, I’m not dissing it, like, but it’s a creative act. And because there’s a lot of like generative AI, which actually PT and stuff like that, there’s a lot of writing out there at the moment.

So if everyone’s attention spans are also gone to shit, are they going to read a page about open AI or why don’t we just actually put them in that experience and say, this is what this is. And this is what the benefits and the risks and blah, blah, blah.

But this is what this feels like. And that’s, what’s really important. It’s a simulated experience and how we consume media as a society.

Let’s, let’s just be clever about it. Like we’re living in the black and stone age, just reading articles all the time and websites, you know, we have the tech, why not just build it? Yeah. That’s fascinating that you say that from a simulation perspective, because I had quite a idea of virtual reality until I put a virtual reality headset on and I went, oh, that’s what it is.

I can see now. You actually have to go there into that space to really get it rather than being told about it. And when I talk about virtual reality to much older people, they go, oh, no, I have no idea.

But once you put those headsets on, they go, oh, yeah. Being able to see it is a very different thing from, or experiencing it very different from reading about it. Let me explain to you.

Completely. I remember I got an Oculus Pro three, four years ago. I can’t remember.

It was a few years ago. And I got it for Christmas. And I was in my parents’ house and like my dad was very sceptical, but you know, and he was like, oh, what’s that like a video game of some kind? And he put it on and he was like, wow, what is this? Like, this is incredible.

And it’s that, it’s, it’s that thing is that you have to experience things to understand them. And it’s like everything in life, whatever, by technology, do you know what I mean? So yeah, that’s, that’s really what we’re trying to do. I think it’s really important.

And virtual reality is a great example of that. Have you tried the new Apple Vision Pro? I haven’t yet. No.

No, neither have I. Neither have I. I’m dying to try it. Me either. I’m desperate to try it, but that’s, yeah, for another day.

Yeah. Yeah. Can’t wait for that.

That’d be really cool. Well, anything Apple is just, it changes the marketplace completely. And it’s amazing.

Yeah. And what everyone else has done before that just doesn’t happen properly until Apple launches something and then everyone has to follow because Apple just do it so well because it’s always so user-friendly. It’s so easy, which has its advantages as well.

It’s maybe too easy sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Like barrier to using it and getting consumed by it. I think we’re in the age of convenience. You know, I think a lot of people have given up hard work.

I say I’m very traditional now, but I think a lot of people have given up this concept that you put in efforts over a long period of time to reap the rewards, whereas people just want the rewards now. And with Apple Vision Pro, like I think it’s, it’s incredible piece of technology. Like it’s cool.

And I’m sure it’s like, like I said, the Oculus Pro is great crack, but like the Apple Vision Pro I think takes it to the next level. And, and it’s amazing, but I can, I can only see how it’s going to dumb down a lot of our societies of it’s not used properly, you know? Yeah. So that’s quite worrying.

That’s quite worrying unless actions were to taken there. Yeah. Do you think it’s about the individual taking back control of technology rather than waiting for governments and big tech to actually put legislation in place to protect us? So a lot of times people I hear them saying, well, tech, big tech needs to put this in place.

Governments need to do something, but do you think it actually is our responsibility more than theirs or equally? Or do you think, what do you think about us needing to take back control? Yeah, I think, I think it’s a combination of like all of it. Big tech or big tech, like they’re big companies, like it’s their job to make profit. I don’t know why people point fingers at big tech all the time.

Like they’re literally a company. They don’t give a shit. Like, it’s like, if you go work for these big companies, you’re a number.

So once again, they don’t give a shit. Like it’s like, what do you expect? You for being what it is. It just is what it is.

Governments are the exact same. They’re not that they make money, but they’re slow. They’re super slow.

Are they going to put in legislation? Yeah. But like, I do think a lot of that is just putting a plaster on a wound and people need to be proactive. And that’s where I think, and this is where it’s, it’s a catch 22 because like TikTok technology, a lack of attention spans making us super lazy as a society, but we can’t be lazy.

We need to be proactive in terms of educating ourselves around this technology. So it’s a complete catch 22, but that’s, I guess that’s where companies like us come in and we’re like, right, let’s just make it easy, easy to educate yourself. But there does need to be the proactive element.

And there is people who are, who get us, you know, there are a lot of people that get it, but a lot of people need to be convinced as well. Um, yeah. A lot of what you do, and I guess a lot of what I do is based in, is underpinned by academic research and by, by theories and by what other people are doing in the, in the universities and the academic world.

So it’s kind of like we’re taking that and making it bite-sized chunks that is English rather than academic speak. And it’s a very different way of talking. So, um, what you’re doing really is it’s completely underpinned by academic research.

Yes. Yeah. Completely.

Yeah. And this is the thing is that like a lot of the academic research around smartphones and things like that, that’s out there says that, um, there is no correlation between negative mental health and social media and smartphones and stuff. And that’s fascinating.

Um, and I don’t agree with it, even though it’s academic research, because I don’t think there’s enough papers and research out there, but I also think that when it comes to cyber psychology, a lot of the academic research, not saying that it’s because it’s definitely not definitely definitely not, but it’s, it’s so contextualized all of it, because everyone’s unique individual experience with the laptop, with the phone, how we interact with technology, it’s all individual to us as people. So we can’t really rely too much on research in order to get the message across. It’s all unique, unique experiences.

Absolutely. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And it’s also such a small part of the complete marketplace.

So it’s a bit of a dipstick of a hundred people, a thousand people, but it’s not the entire population, which is very difficult to do research on. And it’s such a new academic field that to do something that really gets into, um, the nuances of so many different types of people is tricky and because technology moves on so quickly that once it often, once it’s published that little bit of research may be out of date. So, um, I think a lot of what you and I do is kind of look at the, as you say, it’s really interesting to see that what comes on academic research, but actually what else are we seeing? What are the anecdotal evidence? What else? And, and kind of making connections and might not be completely grounded in research because we don’t have time to do the research, but kind of going actually this and therefore that.

So, and, and it’s, we can spend 20 years researching, but as we said, we’re talking about earlier, a lot of people would have been, they’re no longer teens or actually they might be dead or they might not be in the space. So, and it might’ve gone too far down the rabbit hole for us to pull it back. So what we need is to take what we know and put it out there in a way that to help people have that information rather than just consuming it from mass media.

Exactly. Exactly. I think we need to move like super fast, you know, because, uh, cyber psychology is one of those things that’s just, like you said, it’s going to move fast.

If you publish a piece of work, it’s going to be completely outdated. Um, but that, that’s why I don’t know, like, like that’s why I really enjoyed like, um, my thesis, like on TikTok and self-presentation, um, because TikTok is still the same and social media and how you present yourself is always very consistent, but not consistent across different platforms. But it’s, um, it’s just interesting.

Like I thought that that would be like a piece of research that’s like completely not, like I’d say completely gone by now, four years, two years later, whatever it is. Um, but it’s still quite relevant. So like, it’s interesting that there’s parts of the internet and technology that stay over time.

Um, and those parts seem to be around self-presentation and communication, um, like CMC, like, you know, how we communicate online. And that’s really what the focus of Saoirse is because that’s how we can kind of stay ahead of the curve is that how we communicate and how we present ourselves never changed, but the medium changes. Does that, am I making sense of that? Yeah.

Completely. And that’s, it’s, it’s the psychology and the human behavior behind the use. So what’s driving us as individuals.

So what is that rather than actually what you’re using, what gadgets you’re using to accomplish that. Yeah. And I’m incredibly grateful for academics because I don’t think I’d be where I am without that academic platform, but there is an element of both you and I have to take that step out of that and kind of go, actually, that we have to look at it from an individual perspective in order to get what’s out, what we know out there.

So people, ordinary people like you and me really can understand it better. Um, so, um, so what you’re doing for me is just revolutionary and so, so needed. And I think, um, what, and part of why we do these podcasts is to really tell people what you’re doing so that they can come to you, a help out with your podcast, um, or being part of your building the platform, but also then to share it with others so that others can have this knowledge.

Yeah. And I’m also like with you, Carolyn, like, I think it’s amazing that you’re doing this podcast. Cause like we were saying this before, before we, uh, went live, um, that like the, like the podcast like this is so needed to see how people, cause the amount of people who messaged me on LinkedIn and they’re like, Oh, I’m thinking of doing cyber psychology course, you know, where do I go from there? Because there’s no like cyber psych jobs, you know? Yeah.

And, um, it’s, I think it’s really valuable for people to like, understand, like you said, just, just get that information out there in layman’s terms. And also if they do want to go study it, they can see what kind of other opportunities are out there for them. And I think it’s amazing what you’re doing too.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

Very exciting. Very exciting going forward. So one of the things I want to find out from you is how people can actually get onto or find out more about what you do and how they can connect with you.

Um, all the links in the, in the details and the notes below the podcast, but what is the best way to get in touch with you? Yeah. They can message me on LinkedIn or they can find me on LinkedIn. It’s just Ruth Guest.

There’s not many of us there. So, um, I think that might be two or something. Um, uh, or you can go to search.ai, um, and you can contact us there, or you can, if you’d like to contribute, you can play a game, give us feedback.

We would love that. Just as we finishing up Ruth, one of the things that I asked you to come with is your recommendation of cyber psychology books that people can read, parents or young people, or those in the industry that you go, actually, this is a really good book to start with. Um, what would that, that be? It can be one book or three books and we’ll link to those books as well in the notes.

Yeah. So the first one, um, is the Oxford Handbook of Cyber Psychology. It’s a little bit academic.

Um, I actually have it here because I know you’re going to ask me this. So, um, yeah, so it’s a beast, but it’s, um, yeah, I think we, there were, it was, this is like on sale for like 50% off or something throughout the master. So I was like, I’m buying that it’s, if you’re not really into academic reading, don’t bother.

Um, saying that though, there’s a couple of other books. Like I told you, I’m really into like the simulation theory. Yeah.

And so this is David J. Chalmers reality plus virtual worlds and the problems of philosophy. This is a really good book. And it talks about like, um, uh, consciousness, uh, virtual reality.

Um, you know, what does the future look like when it comes to that? Are we living in a simulation? Um, all this kind of, uh, conceptual philosophical topics, which is just absolutely fascinating. And then there’s two more books, um, that I really liked when I was in the course. Um, this is a lovely at the infinite reality by Jim Blazkowicz and Jeremy Billinson.

I absolutely love it. I’m actually going to read it again this week. And it, once again, talks about virtual reality and, you know, how our brains recognize where reality ends and virtual begins.

So very interesting, but not maybe as heavy as the other book, if you know what I mean. Yep. So definitely very accessible.

And then by Sherry Turkle, we have the second self computers and human spirit, definitely, um, philosophical, um, and a little bit more academic too, but it really kind of looks at, um, you know, how computers kind of affect us as people and our, our spirit as she calls it, um, in the book. And, uh, it’s a little bit outdated because I think this is the 20th anniversary edition. So this is really going back.

Um, she talks a lot about like interaction with like robots and things like that. Um, but it really gives you a good idea of, um, of how we interact with tech, but yeah, they’re my, they’re my four books. So I couldn’t pick just one.

No, I know what you mean. I’d do the same thing. These are my top two books.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, they’re, they’re so good though.

Like there’s so many interesting books out there. Um, but they would definitely be my, be my favorites. Uh, yeah.

Yeah. Fabulous. Thanks so much, Ruth.

Um, is there anything else that you want to chat about, um, before we finish up? I don’t, I don’t think so. I think I actually don’t think so. No, but I like, I think if there was a finish with anything, like it would just be that people should be aware of where technology is going.

You know, I think people should look to the future more often when it comes to us and understand that the only way to live with technology is to educate yourself because it’s not a bad thing. You should just embrace it. You know, that’s, that’s really what I would get from us.

And if you want to join Saoirse, go to the website. Exactly. Yeah, I completely agree.

It’s about educating ourselves and being more aware of what it’s doing to us. And so we can take back the control personally and make decisions rather than just let technology happen to us. We choose it.

Exactly. Have a sense of control around us, you know, and I think like we mentioned this before the, before we went on the call, is that like, for me, I think you’d agree with me. Cyberpsychology has given me a new lease of life, but is also helped me understand myself so much better because we talk around about how we present ourselves online and things like that.

And it’s kind of like, now I understand what I present and you know, what implications are there and what that means. So it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s an incredible thing. Brilliant.

Yeah. Well, Saoirse, it’s been so amazing chatting to you as always, and I look forward to seeing in September what you’re going to be launching. Yeah, of course.

And yeah, we’ll get hold of you and it will be great to catch up and keep seeing what you’re doing. So thanks for joining us today on Confessions of a CyberPsychologist. Thank you so much, Carolyn.

Appreciate you having me on. You’re very welcome. Cheers.

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Introducing Confessions of a CyberPsychologist​

by Podcasts

I’ve started a podcast, intending to interview as many CyberPsychology experts as are willing to get involved`.

The first expert interview has been recorded and should be posted soon.

This short video is a brief explanation of why I started Confessions of a CyberPsychologist.

In a nutshell: after a lot of writing articles and doing talks, several people have suggested I ought to start Podcasting.

I am not a journalist or a media personality by trade or training. I am a psychologist who used to do corporate marketing.

But as a few people have said to me (in one way or another), ‘it is better to share information and learn as you go, than wait to be perfect and for someone else to steal the show’.

I hope you will overlook the current not-so-professional nature of the videos. The quality should improve with time and practice.

So, here I am, sharing what I know, and interviewing other experts in CyberPsychology about what they know in the world of the human-technology intersection.

Hopefully, by joining me on this journey, we will both learn more about how our behaviour and psychology impact our technology use and how our technology use impacts our human behaviour and psychology – and what we can do to build a better relationship with our tech use and get back control of that relationship.

Because your digital health and wellbeing matters…

If you have any technology and human behaviour related questions, please feel free to get in touch. I will do my best to either answer your questions or find another expert who hopefully can. Use any of these options to send through your questions.

Email: podcasts@cybercology.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/cybercology1

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/cybercology/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cybercology_digital_health/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cybercologydigitalhealth/

Welcome to Confessions of a CyberPsychologist.