Yeah. So what we’re really going to be talking about today, Ruth, is what you’ve been doing, where you’ve been and what got you really fascinated with cyber psychology and then talk a lot about what you, your project and where you’re going with it and who it’s for.

So just a bit of background of you as a person, where you come from, what you used to do before cyber psychology. My name is Ruth Guest and I’m a cyber psychologist and the founder of Socia, online social media safety training for preteens simplified. And what we’re really building is a social media simulator to protect preteens from the risks of social media and increase and enhance family connection.

So I’m based in Dublin and I was a photographer, marketer, and just an RN creative and freelancer before I started Socia and how I got into Socia was through cyber psychology. I don’t think I would even have started the business without that degree. And so what happened was in 2020, I booked a one-way trip to Vietnam and I was like, I’m going to go to Southeast Asia.

I’m going to end up in Bali, end up in New Zealand. Just do what you do in your mid twenties, you know, they’re traveling. So I did that.

And, and I, at the same time had just finished an evening course in cyber psychology in IUDT in Dublin. And I was like, I do not, I’ll apply for the masters as well. I was like, I probably won’t go because I’ll be traveling, but why not? 2020 happened, obviously I couldn’t go to Vietnam and I got accepted into the masters.

And so I ended up moving down to Wexford where I was working full-time and doing the masters online for two years. And yeah, that’s just like, I loved the evening course in cyber psychology. It was such a lovely introduction to the topic.

But yeah, then I completely fell in love with it to the masters. So yeah. And then here we are a bit more to the story of how search was created, but that, that was really it when it comes to cyber psych.

So what was that pivot point for you in terms of knowing what cyber psychology is? Was it in uni or was there something else that happened that you went, Oh, that’s interesting? Yeah. I’ve always been interested in psychology and it’s just general psychology of how people interact. I think that’s really interesting.

But growing up as a millennial, like I remember my parents getting this, you know, the big old computers, the windows XP, whatever they are. And we’d go home from school and I’d go on MSN and I’d go on Bebo and I’d go on MySpace. I was like 14, 15 or something.

And I remember being like, this is the coolest thing ever. Like, it’s just amazing. And I was on Wikipedia all the time and YouTube and like looking at, because I love the encyclopedias growing up.

Um, so I was like, I have all the information I ever wanted my fingertips, you know? And, uh, that was where that kind of went into like my photography work and how I would present my photography through Instagram and trying to get work through Instagram, then working with influencers and working with brands and like, God, that’s really interesting. So when cyber psych came along, I was like, Oh, wow. So it’s psychology, but it’s also about, like, I have this interest in photography and, you know, how people are presenting themselves online.

I was like, this is really cool. And that’s, that’s kind of what got me into it. I would say.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s fascinating.

It is fascinating. And I just want, I do wonder if a lot of times cyber psychologists go into the cyber psychology because we’re so passionate about technology in the first place. And then there’s also passion about psychology and this kind of these two worlds intersect, which makes it such a fascinating area.

Yeah, I agree. Like, I think there’s a lot of, like, I would say a lot of cyber psychologists are like futuristic thinkers and, you know, we’re really interested in how technology impacts society because I think people always have this like really negative attitude about technology in the future. And yes, of course, there’s some horror stories that we should all be very wary of some things that’s out there, but it’s such a positive influence at the same time as well.

Do you know what I mean? And, um, but it’s, it’s interesting to see how, like, it’s cyber psychology. It’s fascinating because it’s such a niche field right now. Um, well, as it expands over the next 20 or 30 years, it’ll be so interesting to see how technology is potentially impacting babies who are like swiping on phones and like this kind of thing.

Like there’s the positives and negatives to it, but it’s, it’s encapsulated our entire daily lives now. So yeah, it’s, it’s so interesting. Absolutely.

And we’ve chatted before about, um, mass media and their perception of what they put out there to the general public on cyber psychology issues, even though they don’t call it cyber psychology. Um, and we’ve both kind of gone, Oh no, that’s not quite, um, the right kind of thinking process behind it. So what is your perspective on what the mass media puts out on what we do? I think it’s, it’s clickbait.

It’s all clickbait. And I think it’s very unfortunate, like, because what media is run by all these bank companies at BlackRock and stuff, and it’s, it’s their job to make as much money as possible. And the only way that they’re going to make as much money as possible is if they do clickbaity headlines and they don’t put out real research or real information around technology.

Like they, they will only look at lockouts and cash, you know? Um, I think that really, I think that that’s really bad because if people are only reading the news and they’re only looking at this clickbait material, um, and I’m not just talking about like the Daily Mirror or like the Sun or the Daily Mail, whatever it’s called. I’m talking about Sky News. I’m talking about CNN and all of the news organizations.

And they like it just for, for us, for people who understand that there’s so much nuance and context within how we interact online and the situations that we see online. Um, it’s very unfortunate for the people who just take their news as fact, and they have this, they’ve developed this fear around technology, um, because they don’t know how to use it. Uh, and that’s one of the things we’re doing, Saoirse, is trying to educate people about social media and how to use technology properly, because there’s nothing out there.

Yeah, which kind of led me into the next question. So what is it that got you passionate about starting Saoirse? What is, what, what is the point of it? Because if we’ve got all this, um, real, uh, clickbait media going on, are you doing Saoirse? What is, what can it do for parents? How are you, how are you helping people and change, trying to change things? Yeah, of course. So what I’m really passionate about is, um, children potentially reaching their potential, um, and getting the support that they need.

Um, because for various reasons, I didn’t really have that growing up. And, um, I do think that if kids have the potential to be who they want to be and the creative expression, I just think that their lives would be so much more fulfilled. I think that the family experience and the family unit will be a lot tighter as they go throughout their teenage years.

It’s just a personal belief of mine. And so when Saoirse started, um, throughout my degree, I had a huge interest in photorealistic avatars and I just loved them. I was like, this is going to overcome uncanny Valley.

It’s like, if we can potentially then, you know, create this AI, um, and attach it to photorealistic avatars, you’d be able to deliver like level one CBD therapy to people, uh, in countries where they can’t afford therapy. Right. And then I was like, right, what if you could actually do that for kids? So that’s really how Saoirse began, you know, it was going to be a digital therapeutics product and because of that passion, but I quickly realized that I wasn’t that kind of founder.

You know, I’m not going to raise that much money to, to build a, an AI machine learning model, whatever it is. And these photorealistic avatars that weren’t really kicking in, they weren’t really popular in 2020, but then only within the last year, like Mark Zuckerberg and Lex Friedman had like, though, he saw that, that, um, that podcast that they did, and it was like virtual reality. They literally looked like humans.

It was absolutely insane. So that tech really sped up fast, definitely not the right person to create that. Um, but then I went back to the drawing board.

I went back to these parents that I was speaking to, and I was like, you know, what are you actually worried about when it comes to mental health and wellbeing with your kids? And all of them said smartphones. And instantly I knew I was like, well, that’s click bait because everyone on the news is talking about smartphones. But I was like, the real fear here is that parents are afraid that the kids can’t look after themselves without the parents online.

Right. And that’s why I was like education, I think is needed and not just like online safety, phishing scams and all this kind of thing. Like it’s, it’s about how kids interacting online with each other and with strangers on video games and things like that.

It’s the communication. It’s the nuance of communication online. And there’s no one teaching.

And as a great, why don’t we use technology to actually develop something where we can teach them that in a fun and educating way, where also we can get the parents to learn about it too. And that’s what we’re building. The conversation starters through like a notification center.

So like every time a child completes a level, the parents will get like a learning outcomes of the level, but then they’ll get like this short conversation starter to speak about the dinner table. So like they come home from a busy day at work. They cook the dinner, they get a notification on their phone and it’s like, all right, Snapchat and location or Snap Maps.

The question is, how can you stay safe with Snap Maps or something like this? And the parents from this will learn from the child. And what I think that will do is enhance family connection and trust between the parent and the child, which is ultimately what we’re selling. It’s really nothing to do with education technology, but it’s everything about keeping the family connected.

Yeah. So it’s not really so much in the schools. This is about the family units and helping them to kind of be more cohesive and have conversations that they can have with their children.

Because a lot of parents that I speak to kind of say, well, I don’t know how to set parental controls. I don’t know what to talk to them about because I’ve got no idea what Snapchat is because I don’t use it. And who knows what TikTok is? So it’s how do you have to start that conversation with your children? How do you actually have the lingo? Because they have their own lingo and their own way of talking about stuff.

So how do you engage with them? And there seems to be this real gulf between the parents and the children. So is that kind of part of what you wanted to do? Pretty much. Yeah, that’s exactly it.

It’s about, you know, kids. Kids think that their parents are like, you know, they’re like, oh, mom and dad are cool. They don’t know what this word means online.

Yeah. Like so it’s about it’s about making sure that the parents are up to date of what’s going on in the kid’s life. You know, one short question that we’re like one open ended question can lead to a significant conversation about something that’s happening online in the child’s life, whether it be a conversation with friends in school or something like that, which a parent could then flag and say, oh, hold on, I didn’t know you’re speaking to this person, or I don’t really understand what this means.

And, you know, if the parent is actively involved and actively wants to learn, the child will give that information up at a preteen level. What we’re hoping is we can solidify that connection with the parent and child. So then throughout the teen years, if shit hits the fan with the kid, which let’s say 80 percent of the time it can do with teenagers, they will be able to keep that connection going when it comes to the online world.

So they’ll be able to say, well, mom and dad, we went through that social program together. They know what’s going on online. I can talk to them about this.

And that’s really and that’s really the vision and mission for Saoirse. So having that open conversation, having that ability for the child to say I can talk to my parents about this stuff. Exactly.

Correct. The real big issues come in teenage years when children are separated from their parents and with a group of friends. And if they don’t have that open communication, then it goes a bit piton.

Yeah, that’s that’s exactly it. Obviously, it’s going to work for for every single time. Every single family is different.

But we do want to create that process and that can help help families. So that’s what we’re building at the moment. And obviously, cyber psychology has been such a big part of that as well.

So, yeah, it’s very exciting. It’s just it’s so needed. It’s such a desperate gap in the marketplace.

And for parents as well, I think they they are often going to big media or trying to find something online and to come from a cyber psychologist who kind of knows what they’re talking about, who’s passionate about this. And I think a cyber psychologist, we don’t know everything. We never will.

But I think both you and I, we’ve spoken before about this. We’re constantly learning. We’re constantly trying to find out new stuff and just sharing what we know so that others can others can benefit, too.

It’s not about keeping it to ourselves. Yeah, sure. Sure.

And I think it’s such a niche field like we touched on this earlier before the call is that like it is such a niche field that we kind of are like I would say pioneers in this industry and we kind of have to make ways and educate others about cyber psych and about, you know, like the ideal self online. How do we present ourselves? How do we communicate online? You know, all these small little things. We have to spread the word about that.

I think it is like we were saying, for me, it’s very purposeful. It feels very purposeful that I can do this. And yeah, doing it through is just like a great avenue to do it.

Yeah. In some ways, it’s almost like we’re going ahead to draw the maps so that others can follow. And yeah, that’s a beautiful way to put it.

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s that’s great.

That’s kind of a part of what I see it is what I’m doing and what you’re doing. And I see that’s why I think we connect have connected so well in the past is that we’re both passionate about going ahead and showing the way and it’s never going to be perfect, but we’re doing what we can to draw maps together. Of course.

Of course. Yeah. I think it’s so important.

And I like for me, it’s kind of like you need to like it’s a high risk, high reward situation. You have to kind of take a risk and try to build something of value. And if if you fail, like you fail, try and fail.

Exactly. I mean, for me, it’s grand play. I mean, at least you tried.

Exactly. So tell me more about social in terms of having set it up originally, and we’re speaking before about how you’ve kind of started to fund this and able to do this independently now. So chat us through what that’s all about and how it started and how you’ve been able to upscale it.

Yeah, of course. So like we did do that pivot from my digital therapeutics into like kind of like social media learning. And what we did was from there is that I we interviewed like one hundred and fifty plus parents and we tried to figure out what the biggest concerns are when it comes to social media and the online world.

And they were cyberbullying, stranger danger, pornography, violence and screen time. And which are all very obvious things, you know, with very obvious concerns. And so I went away and built a load of different wireframes and prototypes on Figma and they weren’t great, but they’re grand.

And then I tested them with an age group of like six to 13. And they were grand, like what they were, they were like videos. And then the kids would answer questions after them.

And I knew it wasn’t going to be the final product, but I had to build something. It’s almost like, you know, do you write? You write, don’t you? And you know, like the way you have to write shit to get the good stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. So draft a thousand drafts to get to the right thing. Exactly.

So I built these crap prototypes and these kids were like, yeah, they’re grand, like, you know what I mean? But like, whatever. So then one day I kind of built this page and I was like, what if, you know, it was like, looks like an Instagram feed. And then I’m going to time the kids to answer questions.

Sorry, time them to analyze the Instagram feed. And then I’ll ask them questions. I did that.

And they loved that. And the parents loved that too. They’re like, that looks like Instagram.

I was like, yeah, it does. Yeah, whatever. And that’s where I was like, shit, I’m onto something.

Kids, all they want is social media. That’s all they want to do. They want to be with their friends.

They don’t care. So I was like, why don’t we build a social media simulator? And for me, I, I jumped at that idea because I’m all into like, um, I love virtual reality and how we present ourselves there. The simulation theory.

Um, I, I love that. So anything to do with the simulation, I’m like, that’s cool. So a social media simulator, maybe combined like Duolingo style challenges.

That’s where we were for the last while. And of course it’s been developing and developing, and I can’t say where we’re at right now, um, in terms of the development, but what we do have is like a MVP out that parents and preteens can test at the moment. So we’re trying to get as many of them to test and give us very, very critical feedback so that we can bring that to our development team.

And then we hope we’ll be launching our actual product in September. So that’s where we’re at. Can’t tell you too much more about it, but it’s, uh, it’s exciting.

The direction we’re going in, really exciting. So you, what you need right now was parents to participate and help you be part of this, this next step. Exactly.

Exactly. Passionate parents who understand the value of education. They understand that like, you know, putting parental controls in your phone will only do so much.

It’s, uh, you know, taking the phone away from you. It’s only going to do so much, but education is the way forward. Um, so yeah, we’re looking for as many parents with preteens, uh, between the ages of eight and 13 to come on, play the game, tell us that it’s crap, tell us why it’s crap, tell us what you’d love to see instead, and then go from there.

And like all the feedback so far has been like, this is shit. I’m like, this is amazing. Like that’s like, so many entrepreneurs would be like devastated by that, but I love that because they’re telling us why it’s crap.

Um, you know, it gives us like a baseline to work from. Um, so yeah, it’s been good. It’s been really fun.

A lovely learning experience. Yeah. Constructive feedback.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s necessary.

Always necessary. Yeah. That’s one of the things of kind of doing something in a small group of people or just on your own, it’s, it’s having this echo chamber of your own self and not getting that feedback, which is critical to making it really good and really helpful in adding value to people who are going to use it.

Of course. Yeah. It’s so funny you say that because I, I have been in my echo chamber for such a long time and because I’m not a parent and I’m not a teacher, I’m never around kids.

Like I don’t have a clue. Like I think my, like my, we only, I’ve only one nephew and he’s almost two, do you know what I mean? So I don’t have experience of routines. Um, so when I build something, it’s really important that I get that consistent feedback from parents who are actually around kids.

Um, but it’s great. Like our team has expanded recently. We’ve brought on, um, Heather Bernard, who, uh, she’s brilliant.

She’s a mom and she is also a teacher in international schools and she’s a digital wellness educator as well. So even having her perspective is brilliant because instantly she’s like, yeah, no, you don’t say that to a parent or like, yeah, we can go down this way because it’s for kids or like, it’s fantastic. So getting outside of your echo chamber I think is super important.

Yeah. I think also being, not having children actually probably helps you as well. So when I’m back in marketing days, one of the things you used to say to us is that if you have, um, if you use the product that you’re marketing, you become one and everything that you do is based on your mindset and your bias of how that product is used.

So you judge all the other people who use the product from your viewpoint. Whereas if you, if you don’t have, or you don’t use a product or you’re not a parent or you’re not this or you’re not that, you come to it from a very different perspective. So you actually listen to people who not in that space and don’t filter what their feedback through your bias.

So actually in a lot of ways, you not having children is a good thing because you’re coming from a, from a very different perspective and going, but actually what about what if, and I don’t understand, okay, so why? And so you’re able to build it from that passionate perspective that you can hear and listen from a non-biased viewpoint, which I think is, it’s not a disability. Actually, it’s a real advantage for you to be in that space. That’s really good.

I never actually thought of it like that before. And that’s so good to know because I always thought that it was such a disadvantage, not being part of a community of parents, you know, or not having my own, my own kids. Of course I’ve got cats, but they’re not really counted as human kids.

They don’t look at TikTok. Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, no. So like that, that’s, that’s so interesting. It makes sense.

It makes perfect sense why that would happen, but yeah, no, like it, it’s great to, as the team expands, like it was just me and as we expand even further, even just having the parents on board, it’s so good to see how we can take that feedback and then just like build it into something that’s actually going to be valuable. Cause that’s, what’s really important. Do you know what I mean? Rather than just building something for the sake of it.

What is your vision in five years time? What if you’ve been in an ideal world and you’re kind of, this is what I really like to achieve. What would that look like? Oh God. What do I share and what do I not share is the question.

So there’s many, many paths that social can go. Right. And you could look at merging with big tech to become a head of safety, the section for head of safety or matter or something potentially.

I could see this becoming, well, it’s definitely going to be in all schools. Like I, without a doubt, I could see this in a lot of schools. I do see it I would love it to be the go-to educational tool for social media.

So when you think of language learning, what’s the first app that you think of? I don’t know. Cause I don’t have children. Do you not learn languages? No.

No. Yeah. No.

So if anyone’s listened to this, the first thing they’d probably think of is Duolingo. Right. And do you know Duolingo? Yes, I do.

Now you mentioned it. Yeah. So we would love to be the, as soon as someone thinks of, okay, my child wants to go on TikTok.

Okay. They need to get social. And what’s interesting is that like, I think like, and you know, you’ll know this, like smartphones are going to be eradicated within the next decade.

We both know this, like they’re just going now the, the adaptability of like how people consume the new kind of tech, whether it be like a Neuralink like chip or something, or the glasses or whatever it is, or even the Apple vision pro not everyone will adapt to that as quick. And obviously we have like economic differences and how people can afford it and this kind of thing. Right.

So there will be people that will still use phones. But what I see is that Saoirse becoming a leader when it comes to education with this technology advances. So like right now I’m thinking of, okay, it might be a social media simulator, but social media is going to look so different in five years time, maybe because the Apple vision pro or something.

So how can we stay ahead of the curve and be a thought leader within that and, um, a pioneer for education when it comes to, uh, social media learning. And I’d love it to be education, not just for preteens, but education for everyone because everyone needs to learn cyber safe. Right.

We’re just saying that. So exactly, exactly. Yeah.

That would be ideal. I’d love that. Oh, fab.

So for parents, this will be, if my child now gets, um, gets a new device, whatever that device is, and I’ve never used it before I go to Saoirse to find out what the device does and how to have those conversations and how to ask the right questions so that I can engage with my child without them going, you’re a bit of a Luddite. You’ve got no idea. So have intellectual conversations or informed conversations with their child.

So is that kind of where you see the benefits for parents and kind of two to five years time? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Like the parents will be able to play, but it, of course it’s for preteens, but we do want to make that separate thing for parents to make it super accessible for them, but then also to make it interactive.

So like, let’s say for example, like something like the Neuralink, you know, happens, right. And everyone has it. And we can see social media at like a black mirror episode, social media through a contact lens or something like that.

And like, when that does happen, it might be in 10, 15 years. I, as in 15 years time, I’d be 45. I might have difficulty adapting to that because we know, um, time, the technology acceptance model, it goes lower, the older you get, right.

Um, so if that is the case, like we want to make it easy for older age groups, let’s say to understand these new technologies through some native experiences. Yeah. But also I guess in some ways, give them the choice of whether or not they’re adopted or why they should adopt it and what benefits it has, and also how to mitigate any negative implications of using the technology.

So it’s kind of not just necessary for preteens, but maybe if I was at that point, I’d be very old. So would it be that I would kind of look and go, actually, that’s not for me, but it’s really interesting because I could have conversations with other people who are using it without them going weirder. Yeah.

Um, so that’s, that’s really fascinating and being a portal, almost like you go to Wikipedia to find out about someone that you come across. Okay. Let me find out the history.

This is top of mind of, I need to know something about this technology. Let me go to social and, and finance pretty much, pretty much. So like you make the way like parents nowadays, they go to FAQ pages, right.

Or they go to like these charity websites and they’re like, this is what you need to know about some shots, you know, or this is what you need to know about your or like open AI, whatever. And it’s like this lengthy blog article. And what I’m looking at it from a cyber psychologist perspective is like, we’re not consuming media through written content anymore.

The only written articles we might read are actual genuine, genuine journalism from, from real writers, you know, where we’re books or, you know, and like, I absolutely love reading. So like, I’m not dissing it, like, but it’s a creative act. And because there’s a lot of like generative AI, which actually PT and stuff like that, there’s a lot of writing out there at the moment.

So if everyone’s attention spans are also gone to shit, are they going to read a page about open AI or why don’t we just actually put them in that experience and say, this is what this is. And this is what the benefits and the risks and blah, blah, blah.

But this is what this feels like. And that’s, what’s really important. It’s a simulated experience and how we consume media as a society.

Let’s, let’s just be clever about it. Like we’re living in the black and stone age, just reading articles all the time and websites, you know, we have the tech, why not just build it? Yeah. That’s fascinating that you say that from a simulation perspective, because I had quite a idea of virtual reality until I put a virtual reality headset on and I went, oh, that’s what it is.

I can see now. You actually have to go there into that space to really get it rather than being told about it. And when I talk about virtual reality to much older people, they go, oh, no, I have no idea.

But once you put those headsets on, they go, oh, yeah. Being able to see it is a very different thing from, or experiencing it very different from reading about it. Let me explain to you.

Completely. I remember I got an Oculus Pro three, four years ago. I can’t remember.

It was a few years ago. And I got it for Christmas. And I was in my parents’ house and like my dad was very sceptical, but you know, and he was like, oh, what’s that like a video game of some kind? And he put it on and he was like, wow, what is this? Like, this is incredible.

And it’s that, it’s, it’s that thing is that you have to experience things to understand them. And it’s like everything in life, whatever, by technology, do you know what I mean? So yeah, that’s, that’s really what we’re trying to do. I think it’s really important.

And virtual reality is a great example of that. Have you tried the new Apple Vision Pro? I haven’t yet. No.

No, neither have I. Neither have I. I’m dying to try it. Me either. I’m desperate to try it, but that’s, yeah, for another day.

Yeah. Yeah. Can’t wait for that.

That’d be really cool. Well, anything Apple is just, it changes the marketplace completely. And it’s amazing.

Yeah. And what everyone else has done before that just doesn’t happen properly until Apple launches something and then everyone has to follow because Apple just do it so well because it’s always so user-friendly. It’s so easy, which has its advantages as well.

It’s maybe too easy sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Like barrier to using it and getting consumed by it. I think we’re in the age of convenience. You know, I think a lot of people have given up hard work.

I say I’m very traditional now, but I think a lot of people have given up this concept that you put in efforts over a long period of time to reap the rewards, whereas people just want the rewards now. And with Apple Vision Pro, like I think it’s, it’s incredible piece of technology. Like it’s cool.

And I’m sure it’s like, like I said, the Oculus Pro is great crack, but like the Apple Vision Pro I think takes it to the next level. And, and it’s amazing, but I can, I can only see how it’s going to dumb down a lot of our societies of it’s not used properly, you know? Yeah. So that’s quite worrying.

That’s quite worrying unless actions were to taken there. Yeah. Do you think it’s about the individual taking back control of technology rather than waiting for governments and big tech to actually put legislation in place to protect us? So a lot of times people I hear them saying, well, tech, big tech needs to put this in place.

Governments need to do something, but do you think it actually is our responsibility more than theirs or equally? Or do you think, what do you think about us needing to take back control? Yeah, I think, I think it’s a combination of like all of it. Big tech or big tech, like they’re big companies, like it’s their job to make profit. I don’t know why people point fingers at big tech all the time.

Like they’re literally a company. They don’t give a shit. Like, it’s like, if you go work for these big companies, you’re a number.

So once again, they don’t give a shit. Like it’s like, what do you expect? You for being what it is. It just is what it is.

Governments are the exact same. They’re not that they make money, but they’re slow. They’re super slow.

Are they going to put in legislation? Yeah. But like, I do think a lot of that is just putting a plaster on a wound and people need to be proactive. And that’s where I think, and this is where it’s, it’s a catch 22 because like TikTok technology, a lack of attention spans making us super lazy as a society, but we can’t be lazy.

We need to be proactive in terms of educating ourselves around this technology. So it’s a complete catch 22, but that’s, I guess that’s where companies like us come in and we’re like, right, let’s just make it easy, easy to educate yourself. But there does need to be the proactive element.

And there is people who are, who get us, you know, there are a lot of people that get it, but a lot of people need to be convinced as well. Um, yeah. A lot of what you do, and I guess a lot of what I do is based in, is underpinned by academic research and by, by theories and by what other people are doing in the, in the universities and the academic world.

So it’s kind of like we’re taking that and making it bite-sized chunks that is English rather than academic speak. And it’s a very different way of talking. So, um, what you’re doing really is it’s completely underpinned by academic research.

Yes. Yeah. Completely.

Yeah. And this is the thing is that like a lot of the academic research around smartphones and things like that, that’s out there says that, um, there is no correlation between negative mental health and social media and smartphones and stuff. And that’s fascinating.

Um, and I don’t agree with it, even though it’s academic research, because I don’t think there’s enough papers and research out there, but I also think that when it comes to cyber psychology, a lot of the academic research, not saying that it’s because it’s definitely not definitely definitely not, but it’s, it’s so contextualized all of it, because everyone’s unique individual experience with the laptop, with the phone, how we interact with technology, it’s all individual to us as people. So we can’t really rely too much on research in order to get the message across. It’s all unique, unique experiences.

Absolutely. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And it’s also such a small part of the complete marketplace.

So it’s a bit of a dipstick of a hundred people, a thousand people, but it’s not the entire population, which is very difficult to do research on. And it’s such a new academic field that to do something that really gets into, um, the nuances of so many different types of people is tricky and because technology moves on so quickly that once it often, once it’s published that little bit of research may be out of date. So, um, I think a lot of what you and I do is kind of look at the, as you say, it’s really interesting to see that what comes on academic research, but actually what else are we seeing? What are the anecdotal evidence? What else? And, and kind of making connections and might not be completely grounded in research because we don’t have time to do the research, but kind of going actually this and therefore that.

So, and, and it’s, we can spend 20 years researching, but as we said, we’re talking about earlier, a lot of people would have been, they’re no longer teens or actually they might be dead or they might not be in the space. So, and it might’ve gone too far down the rabbit hole for us to pull it back. So what we need is to take what we know and put it out there in a way that to help people have that information rather than just consuming it from mass media.

Exactly. Exactly. I think we need to move like super fast, you know, because, uh, cyber psychology is one of those things that’s just, like you said, it’s going to move fast.

If you publish a piece of work, it’s going to be completely outdated. Um, but that, that’s why I don’t know, like, like that’s why I really enjoyed like, um, my thesis, like on TikTok and self-presentation, um, because TikTok is still the same and social media and how you present yourself is always very consistent, but not consistent across different platforms. But it’s, um, it’s just interesting.

Like I thought that that would be like a piece of research that’s like completely not, like I’d say completely gone by now, four years, two years later, whatever it is. Um, but it’s still quite relevant. So like, it’s interesting that there’s parts of the internet and technology that stay over time.

Um, and those parts seem to be around self-presentation and communication, um, like CMC, like, you know, how we communicate online. And that’s really what the focus of Saoirse is because that’s how we can kind of stay ahead of the curve is that how we communicate and how we present ourselves never changed, but the medium changes. Does that, am I making sense of that? Yeah.

Completely. And that’s, it’s, it’s the psychology and the human behavior behind the use. So what’s driving us as individuals.

So what is that rather than actually what you’re using, what gadgets you’re using to accomplish that. Yeah. And I’m incredibly grateful for academics because I don’t think I’d be where I am without that academic platform, but there is an element of both you and I have to take that step out of that and kind of go, actually, that we have to look at it from an individual perspective in order to get what’s out, what we know out there.

So people, ordinary people like you and me really can understand it better. Um, so, um, so what you’re doing for me is just revolutionary and so, so needed. And I think, um, what, and part of why we do these podcasts is to really tell people what you’re doing so that they can come to you, a help out with your podcast, um, or being part of your building the platform, but also then to share it with others so that others can have this knowledge.

Yeah. And I’m also like with you, Carolyn, like, I think it’s amazing that you’re doing this podcast. Cause like we were saying this before, before we, uh, went live, um, that like the, like the podcast like this is so needed to see how people, cause the amount of people who messaged me on LinkedIn and they’re like, Oh, I’m thinking of doing cyber psychology course, you know, where do I go from there? Because there’s no like cyber psych jobs, you know? Yeah.

And, um, it’s, I think it’s really valuable for people to like, understand, like you said, just, just get that information out there in layman’s terms. And also if they do want to go study it, they can see what kind of other opportunities are out there for them. And I think it’s amazing what you’re doing too.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

Very exciting. Very exciting going forward. So one of the things I want to find out from you is how people can actually get onto or find out more about what you do and how they can connect with you.

Um, all the links in the, in the details and the notes below the podcast, but what is the best way to get in touch with you? Yeah. They can message me on LinkedIn or they can find me on LinkedIn. It’s just Ruth Guest.

There’s not many of us there. So, um, I think that might be two or something. Um, uh, or you can go to search.ai, um, and you can contact us there, or you can, if you’d like to contribute, you can play a game, give us feedback.

We would love that. Just as we finishing up Ruth, one of the things that I asked you to come with is your recommendation of cyber psychology books that people can read, parents or young people, or those in the industry that you go, actually, this is a really good book to start with. Um, what would that, that be? It can be one book or three books and we’ll link to those books as well in the notes.

Yeah. So the first one, um, is the Oxford Handbook of Cyber Psychology. It’s a little bit academic.

Um, I actually have it here because I know you’re going to ask me this. So, um, yeah, so it’s a beast, but it’s, um, yeah, I think we, there were, it was, this is like on sale for like 50% off or something throughout the master. So I was like, I’m buying that it’s, if you’re not really into academic reading, don’t bother.

Um, saying that though, there’s a couple of other books. Like I told you, I’m really into like the simulation theory. Yeah.

And so this is David J. Chalmers reality plus virtual worlds and the problems of philosophy. This is a really good book. And it talks about like, um, uh, consciousness, uh, virtual reality.

Um, you know, what does the future look like when it comes to that? Are we living in a simulation? Um, all this kind of, uh, conceptual philosophical topics, which is just absolutely fascinating. And then there’s two more books, um, that I really liked when I was in the course. Um, this is a lovely at the infinite reality by Jim Blazkowicz and Jeremy Billinson.

I absolutely love it. I’m actually going to read it again this week. And it, once again, talks about virtual reality and, you know, how our brains recognize where reality ends and virtual begins.

So very interesting, but not maybe as heavy as the other book, if you know what I mean. Yep. So definitely very accessible.

And then by Sherry Turkle, we have the second self computers and human spirit, definitely, um, philosophical, um, and a little bit more academic too, but it really kind of looks at, um, you know, how computers kind of affect us as people and our, our spirit as she calls it, um, in the book. And, uh, it’s a little bit outdated because I think this is the 20th anniversary edition. So this is really going back.

Um, she talks a lot about like interaction with like robots and things like that. Um, but it really gives you a good idea of, um, of how we interact with tech, but yeah, they’re my, they’re my four books. So I couldn’t pick just one.

No, I know what you mean. I’d do the same thing. These are my top two books.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, they’re, they’re so good though.

Like there’s so many interesting books out there. Um, but they would definitely be my, be my favorites. Uh, yeah.

Yeah. Fabulous. Thanks so much, Ruth.

Um, is there anything else that you want to chat about, um, before we finish up? I don’t, I don’t think so. I think I actually don’t think so. No, but I like, I think if there was a finish with anything, like it would just be that people should be aware of where technology is going.

You know, I think people should look to the future more often when it comes to us and understand that the only way to live with technology is to educate yourself because it’s not a bad thing. You should just embrace it. You know, that’s, that’s really what I would get from us.

And if you want to join Saoirse, go to the website. Exactly. Yeah, I completely agree.

It’s about educating ourselves and being more aware of what it’s doing to us. And so we can take back the control personally and make decisions rather than just let technology happen to us. We choose it.

Exactly. Have a sense of control around us, you know, and I think like we mentioned this before the, before we went on the call, is that like, for me, I think you’d agree with me. Cyberpsychology has given me a new lease of life, but is also helped me understand myself so much better because we talk around about how we present ourselves online and things like that.

And it’s kind of like, now I understand what I present and you know, what implications are there and what that means. So it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s an incredible thing. Brilliant.

Yeah. Well, Saoirse, it’s been so amazing chatting to you as always, and I look forward to seeing in September what you’re going to be launching. Yeah, of course.

And yeah, we’ll get hold of you and it will be great to catch up and keep seeing what you’re doing. So thanks for joining us today on Confessions of a CyberPsychologist. Thank you so much, Carolyn.

Appreciate you having me on. You’re very welcome. Cheers.